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Engine builder experience needed (GAS IN OIL)

5K views 33 replies 8 participants last post by  lrayford 
#1 ·
hey guys, cant believe i'm actually writing my FIRST thread, i could of sworn i was already an active member... ( i'm always reading up on here)

anyways... i have a problem, and like the title says i need some one with some experience assembling engines advice here.

specifically, i have a 2006 R1 50th i dont know much about the bikes history, but when i got it it was makeing a pretty heafty ticking, i replaced the head with a used one and a new OEM yamaha cam chain.. it go better but was a no go... shortly after the the motor started to tighten up. come to find out the crank bearings were getting stuck (which burnt my starter up trying to turn the motor over.. anyways) so i get decided to go the rebuild route this is what iv done..

new crank bearings
new rod bearings.
new cylinder gasket.
new head gasket.
polished crank shaft.
polished cam jurnals.
polished cam caps.
valves lapped.
new NGK CR9EK spark plugs

now the problem:
the bike runs pretty well. it does seem to have a very VERY slight misfire sound when cruising at 5k~ but no real sputter on the throttle. the only real isseing with running is the idle sometimes bounces around between 12-1700~ and will some times stall its self when the bike is at idle and you "blip" the throttle open.. no big deal, except then it dosnt want to start and acts like its hyro locked and gives a fit to fire back up...

now the REAL problem. the motor since being reassembled has a total of 170 miles on it. i drained the oil at 150 miles and a very thin fluid came out with the oil. i am 99% sure it is gas, it smells like gas its clear in the oil like gas it even taste like gas (yes i actually tasted it... you got to be sure right??)

so i thought.. maybe the had gasket didn't seal right even though i tq to spec and in order per the service manual, and tried another gasket. fresh oil and filter... 20 miles later drained the oil hoping it was flush out whatever was left from before and same results, very runny oil... down to the last drop and the filter was full of it to.. now theres no way thats what was left in it, it seems to be finding its way from the cylinder into the oil pan.. obviously not good. (id like to note that all 4 pistons had a pretty exsesive amount of carbon built up at the 150 miles)

i next began to think about the rings. i went and bought a leak down tester and hooked it up. i took 2 readings on each cylinder and it the numbers from one reading to the next vairied but they were consistent in form of compared to each cylinder.. meaning first reading was between 15-20psi % leakage (which i am lead to believe is normal and fine) on all 4 cylinders

the second reading was between 30-32 psi leakage.. which is getting a little on the high side in my opinion but i have no real experience here.. and like i said all 4 cylinders were within that range, so i don't personally think all 4 sets of rings are bad.

so i'm looking at it like this.. if its not the rings, and its not the head gasket.... how in the world am i getting that much gas in my oil pan?? theres only so many ways it can get in there...

please help i don't want to go ripping this apart again but i really need some insite or a point in the right direction... maybe that is to much leakage from the rings idk but again some one please point me in the right direction here i have a ton or hours in this and a good amount of money :frown2:

feel free to message me on here or rely right to the thread. thanks in advance guys! i hope some one knows what could be going on here?!
 
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#3 ·
Hey, no I have not checked these out 99yamaha,

I can look into them a little though, I was just skimming through the manual and it looks like you need a special vaccum gauge to test the pressure and I don't have one of those obviously lol :/.

I don't have any check engine lights though, could this really cause the crank to flood with gas... It came out like water after only 20 miles

But while the bike was apart it was fitted with a used powercommander and full pipe. Would you lean towards this is the culprit?

Thanks for the suggestions, let me know what you think
 
#4 · (Edited)
Sometimes not having it in front of you just makes it guess work,But After reading your 2nd post,I would say DEFINITELY a possibility on pc.Which pc do you have? which ignition module? what bike did it come from? Have you sync your throttle bodies? What do you know about the pc? what do your spark plugs look like? ie: black,tan clean?if you look around on the net you can find a chart for comparison if, your manual does not have one. But, if you have 30-32 percent that is high, was your engine warm?(your first reading sounds a little more reasonable) Could/where did you hear air escaping?Are you sure you had everything in line when you replaced your timing chain? How did it run before the work was done? Did it seem to have proper power? did it seem to bog anywhere/black smoke? you would be surprised how much fuel injectors can pump..But i would start by switching out the the pc with the stock to see what happens!You can (somewhat) get an idea of the condition of your fuel pump by plumbing a fuel line into a large measuring cup and checking your gallons/liters per min. there are a couple of guys on here who seem to know a lot about these bikes,Hopefully they will chime in here.P.S sorry for all questions.Hopefully you have it figured out by now.
 
#5 ·
no worries, i have no problem giving as much detail as i can. anything i can do to help trust me and i apperciate all the help and suggestions from anyone believe me so ill just start answering.


Which pc do you have? = PC3

which ignition module? = none

what bike did it come from? = unsure

Have you sync your throttle bodies?= no, i wasn't aware that this needed to be done

What do you know about the pc?= not much other then it was "used" and in "working condition" for a 04-06 r1 i assumed it was probably mapped for a slip on and filter though.

what do your spark plugs look like?= they're basically brand new still looking too.. i'm not at the garage now but from first glance they still appear to be in almost new condition with very little color change maybe a little darkening on the tips but hardly anything.

But, if you have 30-32 percent that is high, was your engine warm?(your first reading sounds a little more reasonable)= i feel as that 30-32 is also a bit high but i am leaning more on the tool then the actual number here,i found that the tool is easy to manipulate so the fact that all 4 cylinders came back within 2 lbs of each other tells me either all 4 piston rings are exactly worn out the same (unlikely) or they are all good and in check, just harbor freight tool error lol


Could/where did you hear air escaping? only form the crank case

Are you sure you had everything in line when you replaced your timing chain? yup the timing marks are all 100%

How did it run before the work was done? i didn't have the bike very long. when the oil was drained though the first time it wasn't all watered down with gas though so the problem is something NEW it seemed to have the proper power for the very few miles i put on it though

Did it seem to have proper power? yes

did it seem to bog anywhere/black smoke? no bogging or no smoke is visible

hopefully all of this information helps, i would think that even if the bike was dumping fuel that it would just burn what it could though and blow the rest out of the pipe, i wouldn't think that it would cram it down passed the rings though (which makes me lean again towards bad rings... but then away from the rings because the leak % is relatively low and consistent. even if it was a true 30 % leakage and 20 is normal is that 10% of leakage causing my crank to fill with gas after 20 miles.. i doubt it??) this is just strange to me and i cant figure out any real logic on whats going on with this thing..
 
#6 ·
Take the PC 3 off and re-try. If any engine is getting way too much fuel, it will pollute the oil, since the rings aren't meant to seal fuel . If the engine oil wasn't polluted at first change (prior to work), then the PC 3 is where I'd start. The piston tops had dry 'fluffy' light weight carbon, not 'heavy' wet carbon correct ?
 
#9 ·
Hey guys thanks for more input. Sorry I work crazy early hours in the days and came back from vacation today so Iv been asleep the last few hours trying to catch up back to work flow..

Anyways Kurt To answer your question I would consider the build up as heavy and wet, although the only thing that I would say was light about it was it wiped right off with break clean (and then gas once the brake clean ran out but still very little effort compared to when I wiped/ scrubbed/ clean them the initial time the cylinder head was off ) but maybe our definitions or expectations are different, I took a few pictures when I popped the cylinder head off after what I thought was a bad head gasket though I'll see if I can get them uploaded.




99yamaha Is that the instructions on how to load up a map? I have a cable that came with the used unit but I don't have the software or a computer capable of running it either since I only own apple product which is not compatible with the PC software, my cbr also has a used pc3 unit which I took it to the near by shop and they said they put the new base map on based on the mods I told them the bike had since I only took the unit it's self up to them(I guess I just have to trust this but seems legit they told me they had the 9v adaptor and seems to be fine other then a fuel pump starting to fail months and months later but that's off topic lol)
 

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#10 ·
Looking at those pictures again it looks dry on the center and a little wet on the edges? I'm not sure.. Tell me what you think Kurt but basically all 4 looked the exact same way none really better or worse then others and they all cleaned back up to the seconded pic (some did clean up better then that one but that's how clean they were before since I couldn't get them perfectly clean when I originally cleaned them while putting the motor back together. Hope those pics help explain what you were asking for Kurt
 
#14 ·
So it doesn't appear to be the powercommander, the bike idled a little better with it removed but didn't change that fact the the crank case floods with gas, not to mention it ran piss-poor under 5k....

So I rode very conservatively for less then 10 total miles (unplugged from the powercommander) and the crank case is just like before, full off gas :( ....

Here's what the plugs looked like before I went out on today's >10 mile disappointing ride. I know they were in question. Again brand new, under 200 miles still at this point

Anyone else have any more suggestions from this point??
 

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#15 ·
Just a little more to the update, I started questioning if it was gas or water again, as I had straight water in the radiator (mainly due to cost and for testing purposes.... Didn't want throw out a jug of coolant if the new oil got polluted and I would have to end up pulling the radiator later at some point)

So then I asked for an opinion of a neighbor (I didn't give him any info all I asked him was " do you think this is water or gas inside of this oil " as I showed him the oil pan. He thinks gas also.

In addition to that, I took a splash of gas and added it to the oil and mixed it around and there was no change to the oil. I then added the same amount of water and mixed it around and you could easily tell the difference in the oil appearance , once you start to mix the oil around.... Incase anyone is ever wondering "is that gas or coolant in my oil" now you know how to tell lol


Looks like I can get a used trottle body with injectors for about 60 bucks on eBay, I guess I'll order that up today and if that dosnt solve my problem then I guess I'm buying 4 sets on rings and pulling this motor all the way apart again (hoping not)
 
#16 ·
Little more update, I'm going to hold off on the throttle body for now I think as well. We just did a test pulled the injectors and aimed them all at a shop towel, none of the injectors leaked until we hit the start button then of course they all began to shoot, they all had a consistent spray and nothing stuck out or seemed any different ((again this test was done with the PC off and not hooked up ))

This points be back in the direction of rings but it just dosbt make sense the leakage was consistent across the rings????

I'm so lost and $150 on 4 sets of rings plus a total engine disassemble and reassemble (again) isn't really what I want to do, especially if I can't pinpoint it to the rings (which never did this before rebuild. And the Pistons never came out of the cylinder I removed the lower case first (removed the crank) then pulled the head off and took it to the shop and removed the cylinder with the Pistons and rods still in them for the simple fact I didn't want to deal with the rings, the Pistons stayed in the cylinder the who time, all the way up to re installation.

With that said how do rings magically go bad ? And still show consistency across the board..

I hope somebody has an answer out there, I pretty much have a new motor here I just want to be able to enjoy my first Yamaha and not have to scrap an engine that's got all new bearings, polished crank and cam journals with freshly lapped valves and all :( :( :(
 
#17 ·
So today I went back over to the garage and with my 40 dollar harbor freight leak down gauges, this is what I got.

This time around

1. I closed the regulator, disconnected the air supply
2. Disconnected the air supply from the compressor (air in)
3 adjusted the regulator to 0% leak down.
4. Connected air to individual (at TDC for each respective cylinder of course)

I took 4 readings on each cylinder restarting from #1 each time before setting the next cylinder to TDC and moving on. These are the numbers I came up with today on the leak down tester.

Cylinder 1 = 9%,12%,7%,14% average = 10.5 %
Cylinder 2= 8%,11%,27%,4% average = 12.5% or 7.6% if you excluded the 27% which seemed to be a "1 off" for that cylinder
Cylinder 3= 4%,25%,17%,8% average = 13.5% based on all four or 6% based on lower 2 readings or 21% based on the higher to readings but prob not an accurate adverage on this one need some more readings in my opinion to see where #3 truly stands and then lastly...
Cylinder 4= 19%,16%,17%,14% with an average of =16.5%

Do these numbers warrant a Problem? should I take more readings to get a conclusive answer ? Opinions are needed and welcome !

Thanks
 
#18 ·
Also forgot to mention that I pulled the vacuum line off of the fuel pressure regulator and it was dry, I had read that if it fails it will suck fuel in but mine was dry so we can emliminate leaky injectors as those were all checked yesterday and we can eliminate fuel pressure regulator as that seems to be ok.... Running out of possibilities here ..... Need to find a cause to this :/
 
#19 ·
To get enough gas into the crank case to thin out the oil that much I have a tough time believing the engine would even run. Are you certain the gas is not getting into the crankcase through a vent or some other source? I have seen engines running so rich they would barely run, and they did not foul the crank case oil.
 
#20 ·
If it were me having this problem, I would return the bike to 100% stock and troubleshoot from there. You were having problems with it and may have added additional problems by adding in a used PC (with who know what map in it) and full system during the middle of a repair.
 
#21 ·
Poorub, I'm with you, it doesn't make sense. I do know for sure that crankcase breather tube is ran into the airbox and both gas lines from the tank to the fuel rail.

This same thought crossed my mind today while I was at the garage and I looked it over. They all check out fine unfortunately.

Hooligan at this point the bike is "stock" except a bcm air filter and an header back exhaust. But let's be realistic , these parts are not causing gas to get in to oil.

All help is appreciated those guys I'm certainly not shooting your ideas down or anything
 
#24 ·
Hey 99, like I mentioned before it's not water/ coolant bc I added a pinch of gas to the drained oil in question and shook the oil pan up and the texture/ appearance did not change . When I added a pinch of gas and stired the mixture it easily was seen that the mixture changed and wasn't the same.

It also has a very gassy smell to it and taste. I didn't do the lighter technique , but what other fluid on a motorcycle would smell like gas, act like gas and be able to mix it's self into the engine oil.. Heck the only fluids even on the bike are oil, gas, coolant/water and break fluid. And unfortunately water/coolant have seemed to rule it's self out in the way it mixes, smells and taste. And I'd say it's safe to say break fluid isn't running through my motor. It has to be gas. The problem is how is it getting there
 
#26 ·
Not a bad guess or shot at it but we took the fuel rail out and tested everything. None of them dripped or leaked and we laid a few blue paper shop towels down and turned the motor over by the starter they all sprayed consistently and equally nothing stood out like one spraying out of order or crazy spray patter or more then any of the others (this was with the power commander off. Which again with the power commander off no difference was made. 10 mins later the oil was drained and just as runny and diluted as it was with it on.


I atarted to think like maybe the air box was flooding and maybe draining down the crankcase breather vent tube but when the air box was pulled after the oil was drained the air box was dry... Seems to be the most logical way that, that much gas would make its way into the oil. I mean litterally 10 mins of running the bike and draining the oil it drains out like pure piss. It's no longer oil at that point it's so runny and lost its integrity
 
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