Yamaha R1 Forum: YZF-R1 Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Motul doesn't recommend 300v for the 15 R1

37K views 60 replies 26 participants last post by  Gearheaded 
#1 ·
#3 ·
That's one thing I've never understood, and never found an answer for. How can 300V be 'so' good at shear resistance, yet not last as long once it is in an engine. It obviously doesn't have a shelf life, and if the shear resistance is so great, what is making it break down?
 
#5 ·
But they advertise how well 300V actually cleans your engine,

https://www.goapr.com/products/motul_oil_300v.html

IMO they say not suggested for street use because of the dummies that believe in the extended oil changes with synthetics. If you're changing your oil at 3000 miles like most sport bike guys, I think that's perfectly fine for 300V.

It even mentions that in the link, "300V is not designed for extended oil change intervals, therefore it should be changed after track/race events, at 3000 miles on ultra high performance street vehicles or at 5000 miles on lower performance engines."
 
#6 ·
But they advertise how well 300V actually cleans your engine,

https://www.goapr.com/products/motul_oil_300v.html



It even mentions that in the link, "300V is not designed for extended oil change intervals, therefore it should be changed after track/race events, at 3000 miles on ultra high performance street vehicles or at 5000 miles on lower performance engines."
That link is for only cars? This is what motul says about cars vs bikes.

WHY ARE OIL DRAIN INTERVALS SHORTER FOR MOTORCYCLES COMPARED TO CARS?
Unlike with cars, the capacity of motorcycle oil sumps are generally limited given the low overall dimensions of a motorcycle engine. For scooters in particular, their capacity is often less than 1 litre and for some applications dry sumps can also be used. (this is when the oil sump is located remote from the engine)
Given these lower volumes of oil in motorcycles and the increased constraints put on the lubricant, such as higher temperatures, multiple lubrication (engine, gearbox and clutch) and extreme RPM - oil drain intervals are shorter for motorcycles than for cars.
However, we advise that In any event you should always refer to the OEM's recommendations for the correct oil change intervals.
 
#8 ·
I never post in opinion threads about oil, because we all know how they go. But in context of the post above mine, I'll share this.

I heard this same thing. I've run 300V in my 2004 R1 for many years of track abuse, and it's always been fantastic. When I got my new R1M, I figured I'd better get the facts, so I reached out to Motul directly, and spoke with one of their staff. He confirmed that 300V DOES NOT meet OEM standards for warranty coverage on the '15-'16 R1M, and recommended that I NOT run 300V in my '16 R1M if I wanted to be assured of warranty coverage.

If you're a Motul fan, 7100 meets all the necessary standards to be supported by Yamaha's warranty. That's what I intend to run for the duration of my YES Extended Warranty coverage.
 
#10 ·
Uggh, oil debates! I'm with Silas.

I think the reason for two different responses from Motul is presentation of information. My best guess is 300 is absolutely fine to use with proper change intervals. Except, if a warranty failure occurs, Yamaha will do an oil analysis and when they find the oil is missing a component in the additive package. . . goodbye warranty claim.

Total opinion here: I think manufacturers oil recommendations are driven by profit more frequently than mechanical need. (to a point). Manufacturer X says to oil company Y, "We want these products in our additve package and make it proprietary for x time.". Magnuson-Moss law circumvented. More profit. I could be dead wrong but I'm a conspiratist.
 
#21 ·
Oil formulations have been changing to meet EPA guidelines for emissions. New oil ratings have to meet these new guidelines to get the ratings. I spoke with Royal Purple on several occasions about different things. One being what group is their oil made from. They told me group 4 and group 5 base stocks. For my car they told me to run regular Royal Purple until my warranty was up then change to HPS which has better anti friction additives and it is their best oil for street, it just didn't meet EPA requirements therefore didn't meet new car warranty requirements. Oils now are formulated to burn cleaner, thanks EPA, but they are not better for our engines. Have you noticed oil companies tell us to run high mileage oil after our car is out of warranty. There is a reason for that!
 
#13 ·
Ive been running Mobil 1 Racing 4T in everything ive owned. Used it in both street bikes and track day bikes and every time ive changed it looks nice and brown not black. Clutch shifts smooth,all engine internals look great. What it boils down to is 99.9% of synthetic oils will be fine..
 
#17 · (Edited)
mobil 1 never says which oil group their oil is. I know it's not like castrol and petroleum based. mobil actually sued castrol over this. they market castrol as syn when its only crude oil that is highly refined. the gov agreed that castrol is making syn oil by doing this. which is bs. anyway the point of my post is mobil1 still doesn't say if they use pao or ester base stock. pao is still good oil but ester is far better according to what I've seen and read about it. motul and many others even yamalube are ester based syn oil. which they proudly say so on the label and ads.
ester actually performs better in cold weather because it's polar and clings to metal. which also means that first start up after a long storage isn't as bad for the engine. it also performs better the more pressure that is applied to it. not psi in the oil system but contact pressure. it won't squish out they say.

I posted a video in another thread about ester oils. it's from yamalube talking about why they use it for their oils.
 
#14 ·
I have a 2014 R1 and was running mobile 1 4t racing oil but switch to motul 300V this past change. I could not believe how much smoother the shifts are especially even when the bike wasn't warmed up yet. I kept with the same weight, 10w 40 with each oil. If you haven't tried the motul 300V I would say try it for the next change, you will not be disappointed. I have not run other oils in that bike besides the initial factory supplied oil then the Mobil 1 4T and the Motul 300V so can't review against amsoil or others.
 
#15 ·
motorex rep came in recently. Same thing. Their racing oil gives more hp due to friction and does a great job, but it doesn't last nearly as long as their normal oil. It's designed for giving max hp and protecting the engine for a short period vs longevity. How the physics of it work I don't know, but Motorex and Motul both state the same. The motorex stuff is crazy money, but lasts a weekend only if racing.
 
#27 ·
I don't know about that to be honest. This is from the amsoil FAQ:

AMSOIL maintains formulation details as proprietary and does not divulge specifics regarding the type of synthetic base stocks used in its synthetic lubricants. AMSOIL developed the world’s first API-qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972 and has remained the leader in the synthetic lubricant industry by continually researching new technologies and demanding only the highest-quality raw materials. As the company moves forward with new technologies it is increasingly more important that this information remains proprietary. AMSOIL views synthetic base oils the same as it views additives, with each having its own set of unique properties. AMSOIL does not insist on a particular type of base stock, but insists on particular performance parameters. AMSOIL chooses whichever synthetic base stock or combination of base stocks delivers the desired result and tailors its lubricants to be application-specific (gasoline, diesel, racing, transmission, gear, extended drain, extreme temperatures, etc.). At the end of the day, the type of base stock used to formulate the oil is inconsequential; the product’s performance is what matters.
 
#36 · (Edited)
that's laughable. all oil companies use the same base oils from refineries. the only differences between brands are the additive packages they develop and use. amsoil is really on the defensive hiding something. as in their oil is probably like castrol and not actually man made synthetic oil based rather extra refined crude oil based. probably mixed with a little bit of a real synthetic group IV or V. and why it's cheaper. they all pay the same for the base stocks. they're not going to be able to under sell the competition. that's why mobil 1 sued castrol for selling super refined crude oil as synthetic. which they could sell for much cheaper than mobil 1 which was using the real deal that is more expensive.
that's why I wont touch amsoil. they don't want to say what it is they aren't getting my money.

esters are industry known to be the superior type of oils. as in API ratings. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups
 
#32 ·
After talking to black stone labs here is what they have said so far. should only be another couple weeks if that long before i hit 2500 on this oil and i'll bring it down the road to them.

Hi, Nate. Thanks for the email.

This is probably one of those debates that will never be settled, because
there are different ideas on what it means for the oil to "break down." To
some guys, any change from the oil's virgin state (it gets darker, it feels
thicker or thinner, etc.) constitutes the oil breaking down, and based on
that, they decide it must be doing horrible things inside the engine.
That's not really the definition of "breakdown" that we hold to here --
it's perfectly normal for the viscosity to shear a bit over the course of a
run (usually it will drop; an increase in viscosity could be a sign of heat
damage, if high insolubles are also present, so that's a case where we
might consider it to be a problem), and the color of the oil has very
little bearing on how well the oil is holding up.

Another possible definition of "breakdown" would be when the active
additives are too low. We measure that by the TBN reading, which starts out
high (9 or 10, maybe, depending on the oil type and the amount of detergent
additives it uses in its additive package), and when that drops to 0.0, the
active additives are used up. We usually say anything lower than 1.0 is too
low to run the oil longer, but some people have other definitions, like
once it's below half of the starting value, or something like that. Most
motorcycle engines get their oil changed frequently enough that a low TBN
never really becomes an issue.

The things we'd look at in our standard tests related to "breakdown" are
the viscosity, insolubles, and the wear metals. If the viscosity has fallen
too far, or if the viscosity has increased and the insolubles are high,
there might be a problem. But the wear metals are the determining factor --
if wear metals still look great, then who cares if the viscosity has
dropped slightly? It's still getting the job done. If it falls far enough
that wear metals start to increase, that's the point where we'd say it's
become a problem. So I guess that's our definition of when the oil has
"broken down" -- it's when something has changed enough that the oil is no
longer adequately protecting the parts.

We'll be happy to take a look at the oil from your bike, and see what we
can do to lay this debate to rest! You can bring a virgin sample if you
want, but it's not strictly necessary. We've got virgin samples of that
type of oil on file, so we'll have some point of reference even if you
don't bring one. It never hurts to have a more up-to-date sample, though,
so we won't turn it away!

Hope that helps. Let me know if there's anything else we can do for you.
Thanks!

Travis Heffelfinger
Blackstone Laboratories
416 E. Pettit Ave.
Fort Wayne, IN 46806
260-744-2380
Blackstone Labs
 
#39 ·
racing oils are engineered to be as light and thin as possible for the application, so they have the least amount of drag on internal components. Also, a synthetic race oil will have a very limited amount of different oil molecules. The molecules are created synthetically in a lab, so the ability to precisely engineer the 'soup' to a specific ratio is possible. Given racing oils light and thin requirement, these molecules will be fragile and have a short life span. The oil will basically be a very limited set of oil molecules, that fit within a very narrow specification. Light & thin oil molecules will break down very quickly, and it's a bit of an exponential curve how fast this happens. When 100% of the oil is fresh and new, the impact between the metal surfaces (say, con rod and crank for example) is shared by 100% of the oil molecules that are being hammered in that gap. The thin layter of oil being crushed over that surface area is all sharing the beating a detonation event or change of piston direction exerts on it.

However, as the mix breaks down... let's say 5% of the racing oil molecules have sheared; the 95% un-sheared molecules in that gap are now seeing 107% of the force. So, they break down 107% faster. Now we have 10% of the oil not shouldering it's weight, leaving 90% of the molecules to take the beating. Those molecules are now degrading at 115% the rate they were when fresh. By the time 80% of your oil has broken down, the remaining 80% is seeing 120% of the force, so the rate of shear is somewhere around 150% faster. By the time you hit 50% sheared molecules your oil is degrading at something like 400% the rate it did when it was new. 50% of the molecules between those metal surfaces are doing all the work.

Race oils are designed to supply you with the thinnest, lightest, most fragile oil molecules that do the job of protecting your engine for a race duration. That's it. Also, race oil does not have stabilizers designed to resist water vapor contamination, which street oil does. Our engines 'breathe' every time they are heat-cycled; they heat up, and the gasses inside the crank case expand. When our engines cool down, they draw in humid air containing water etc into the crank, and that water condenses. That humid air introduces water to the oil, which degrades the oil over time.

This is why, if you store a motor for 2 years, the oil should be dumped because the day/night cycle has 'breathed' 720 cycles of air in & out of the engine, and the small amounts of water in each 'breath' will change the chemical composition of the oil slightly. Also light hydrocarbons will have been 'breathed' off the oil, changing it's weight slightly.

Street oils however, have a totally different engineering design brief. They are a blend of hundreds of different hydrocarbon molecules; there are some small light molecules to provide penetration and high low temp viscosity, and there will be medium & heavy grade molecules designed to last a long time before they break down from shear. It's not as important to have the lightest, thinnest oil molecules possible - it's important to have thicker, heavier molecules that will take street-level stresses for a very long time. Preventing the last 0.01% of rotational inertia loss from your engine is not as important as having an oil which will keep your metal surfaces apart for 20,000 k's. A street motor should last for 100,000 km, and not just a few races.

Using a race oil may feel like it is 'lubricating' your engine better, making the metal bits more 'slippery', but in actual fact you're probably noticing the slight decrease in rotational intertia loss due to a thin light oil. The race oil isn't 'protecting' your engine better, it's just lighter and thinner.

For Street use, if you change your race oil every 3,000mi, and every 3-4 months, there won't be any problems. You're not stressing the shit out of it like when you're racing, and it's low enough miles and time interval that it hasn't degraded enough yet. The one thing to consider is, race oils won't have additives to resist water contamination and degradation, so you DO need to change them regularly even if you don't do many miles. I mean, resisting water contamination is not even an engineering consideration for a racing application - there's absolutely no point engineering for a scenario that should never, ever happen to a race motor.
 
#40 ·
Following on from my post, these days pretty much any oil with meets a certain standard will be fine in your engine. There's no way my R1 tortures even cheap oil enough during it's 5,000 k oil intervals, for it to be a problem for my motor.

It's more important to keep cycling cheap, clean oil through your motor at regular intervals, than it is to run a crazy expensive oil. Any oil which is certified to meet the standards your bike manual specifies, is going to be more than good enough.

Now, if you wanted to run your oil for longer intervals than standard, that's a different story. You'd go for a more expensive synthetic. Or, let's say you wanted better fuel economy, so you moved to a lighter oil - this is when an expensive synthetic is good.
 
#41 ·
I will be changing my oil tonight. I have about 2800 miles on the 300v that is in there. Aggressive street riding and an advanced riders course in 100 degree temps where i was slipping the clutch all day and the bike was running hotter than all get out.

I will be dropping the sample of to black stone labs tomorrow morning. When i get the results i'll post them in here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top