Clipons resisting countersteer - Yamaha R1 Forum: YZF-R1 Forums
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
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Clipons resisting countersteer

Sold my 10' back in Apr and bought a dl650 but just picked up an 09' not to long ago. Question is with the 09 I feel a fair amount of resistance and even some push back while cornering. I don't ever remember cornering feeling like that on my 10'. In fact I remember it being effortless and intuitive. Anyone think this is indicative of a problem on the 09 I bought or is it all just in my head?
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 09:59 AM
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Checked front tire pressure ? Rear axle aligned ?

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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Tire pressure is 32 front 36 rear cold. Everything looks straight. But I'll double check on the axle.
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 10:58 AM
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Sold my 10' back in Apr and bought a dl650 but just picked up an 09' not to long ago. Question is with the 09 I feel a fair amount of resistance and even some push back while cornering. I don't ever remember cornering feeling like that on my 10'. In fact I remember it being effortless and intuitive. Anyone think this is indicative of a problem on the 09 I bought or is it all just in my head?
Make sure the rear is still a 190/55 not a 50. It's likely in your suspension setup if everything else is ok. Tune it a bit yourself, or find a shop locally to assist..does wonders.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 12:01 PM
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cornering either way have issues or is one more than the other? Could check to make sure your front wheel is aligned (when the clipons are square to the frame, the wheel should be straight.

Does it have aftermarket clipons? Did you '10? Are they turned in a lot?

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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 01:23 PM
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You adjusted your rear and front suspension yet? Set the bike up for your weight?

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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 02:25 PM
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Sounds normal to me! The 09 seems to stand up, and require input through the turn.

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-25-2012, 02:31 PM
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Sounds like a difference in body positioning (weight distribution really) and or suspension settings between the two bikes. Not sure if the suspension is the same between the two bikes, but have you checked that the settings are the same?
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-26-2012, 02:58 AM Thread Starter
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Yea I still have to setup the suspension to my weight on this bike. I rode the 10' without messing with the suspension for about a month when I first bought it and never noticed this. But maybe I just forgot about it. It honestly feels like a severly underinflated front tire but I checked the pressure with 3 different gauges and they all showed 32.

No after market clipons and eveything looks straight and lined up and i feel equal pressure turning left or right. Maybe I just need to ride it more. Coming from the upright dl650 and being used to how that bike behaves while cornering might be messing with my brain.

Last edited by NoPro; 11-26-2012 at 03:03 AM.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-26-2012, 05:20 AM
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You should start by setting up the suspension here.

HOW TO: Motorcycle Suspension Setup 101

If you're really light, you will have to pull out some preload to get it to turn better. Most of the stock bikes take a little tweaking to get them to handle better mid turn. I think the 09 and 10 had springs set up for an 160# rider.

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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 02:10 AM
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Could be worn tires. Run your hand over the tires (across them) and see if there is high spot in the middle. If so, that could be what is causing the pushing back you feel in the clipons.

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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 04:12 AM
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Could be worn tires. Run your hand over the tires (across them) and see if there is high spot in the middle. If so, that could be what is causing the pushing back you feel in the clipons.

Ray


explain this?? I've turned tires into having angled sides and a the top (nearly a triangle if you took a cross section (2" flat/rounded on top) and have never had the resistance in turning. What is this "high spot" you are looking for and how would one have that??

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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 01:01 PM
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explain this?? I've turned tires into having angled sides and a the top (nearly a triangle if you took a cross section (2" flat/rounded on top) and have never had the resistance in turning. What is this "high spot" you are looking for and how would one have that??
I had a similar situation as the original poster and couldn't figure it out - feeling as though there was a pushing back resistance via the clip-ons during cornering. I went by two local race shots and both said it was probably tires. One place, the guy ran his hand over the tires and said "probably your tires". When I got home, I did the same thing and noticed there was a high spot in the middle of the tire (at least on the front), sort of like a hump. In the rear, there was a flat area in the middle (was running a 190/55 in the rear).

As soon as I put on new tires, the bike went back to having that smooth intuitive steering feel and the "fighting the steering" sensation went away. This is why I was asking how many miles on the tires, etc. Naturally, I could be wrong, but I think it's always a good idea to check both tire pressure and tire condition. In 5 years of owning my R1, I've had 3 very strange issues on the bike and in each case, it was tracked down to the tires:

1. A strange harmonic vibration coming through the clip-ons at 55 MPH. Traced to unbalanced/worn tires.

2. A strange feeling of the bike not tracking properly via corners. I had allowed my tire pressures to drop to ~15 PSI front and 18 rear without realizing it.

3. A strange pushing back feeling in the clip-ons. Traced to worn tires front/rear.

It's worth a check.

Ray

Last edited by RayJohns; 12-04-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 01:28 PM
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Yea I still have to setup the suspension to my weight on this bike. I rode the 10' without messing with the suspension for about a month when I first bought it and never noticed this. But maybe I just forgot about it. It honestly feels like a severly underinflated front tire but I checked the pressure with 3 different gauges and they all showed 32.

No after market clipons and eveything looks straight and lined up and i feel equal pressure turning left or right. Maybe I just need to ride it more. Coming from the upright dl650 and being used to how that bike behaves while cornering might be messing with my brain.
This is a used bike, more than likely, so the previous owner may have played with the suspension settings. It may also need a refresh considering the age. I agree with Meister, set the suspension up and you'll likely get rid of that feeling.

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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-08-2012, 03:18 AM Thread Starter
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UPDATE:

Setup the suspension to my weight and took it out for a few corners near my house, still had the same clipon pushback issue coupled with some weird wallowing or bouncing while pushing the bike a little harder through the corners.

Then I remembered what the tire pressures were when the seller swung by my house for me to check it out. Somewhere in high teens/ low 20's which may have deformed the tires??? Took RayJohns on his experience and bought a new pair of Q2's and threw them on. Bingo! Cornering how I remember it. Thank you to all who chimed in on my issue.
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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-08-2012, 11:44 PM
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 03:57 AM
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UPDATE:

Setup the suspension to my weight and took it out for a few corners near my house, still had the same clipon pushback issue coupled with some weird wallowing or bouncing while pushing the bike a little harder through the corners.

Then I remembered what the tire pressures were when the seller swung by my house for me to check it out. Somewhere in high teens/ low 20's which may have deformed the tires??? Took RayJohns on his experience and bought a new pair of Q2's and threw them on. Bingo! Cornering how I remember it. Thank you to all who chimed in on my issue.
That's great - congrats on resolving the handling issue! :-)

BTW, be super careful on new Q2's. I put a set on my R1 and promptly low sided last month; wrecked my bike and nearly killed myself (came off an apex at 70 MPH and stuck the bike and myself into a concrete rain gutter and dirt embankment).

New Q2's are great, but they are slippery on the sides when new. Make sure you are running a pressure on the lowerside for the street, so they heat up.

Ride safe!

Ray
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-19-2012, 12:34 PM
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So...

It was hopelessly low tyre pressures all along then?

Actually, it was the the low tyre presssure's allowing an unusual contact patch and thus irregular changes in dynamic trail values. That and the increse in slip angle forces significantly overcoming the self aligning torque inherent in the steering.

Tyre pressures; I shittem.


And whilst I'm

Dunlop Q2's work just fine. More or less any tyre will have you off if you forget to scrub them in... its not Dunlop that's at fault here.

Have a nice day.

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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 10:10 AM
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I 100% disagree about the q2's. I put brand new q2's on ealier this year (peeled stckers off and out i went) and first lap out ran the piss out of them at the track with no issues (note, no warmers). As long as the bike is set up correctly, you're not going to overuse q2's on the street. Very aggressive right out of the gate and I'm by no means professional.

Poor throttle control, rider mistake, or poor road conditions make people go down on the street. Poor road condition is usually last in the street crash issues.

No offense to anyone, but as others have said, you can't blame equipment.

Moral of the story, take the aggressive riding to the track



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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 10:20 AM
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Most people I know who race say the Q2's are slick when cold/new. Of course, that's true of most any tire probably also.

I'm going to keep the Q2's and maybe run them on the track. For the street, I'm installing Pirelli Supercorsa SP's and going to give those a try. I think the SP's are probably better tires than the Q2. The Q2's are good tires for the money for sure, but I don't think they are in the same ball park as the higher end Pirellis.

Time will tell.

The 190/55 Q2's are 200mm wide, while the Supercorsa Sp's are more like 188 as I recall (I think they are 193 on the rims, but I'll double check when I mount them).

In my specific crash, it was because the tires were not fully scrubbed in, it was cold and I had the pressure too high probably (35/35 when I probably should have been running more like 30/30 maybe for the temp).

The main issue is a dip in the road at the apex. I'm not the first person who has had problems on this particular corner. However, I had come around that same corner many times on the Corsa III's and stepped out the back end with no problem.

You say you put Q2's on and had no problem first lap. But I know someone who did that and low sided on the first corner also...

Talk to 10 people, you'll get 10 different opinions.

Q2's are a lot of bang for the buck. Myself, personally, I like the feedback from the Pirelli tires a bit more I think. I might try the Q2's at a lower PSI and see how they do, but replacing body work ain't cheap :-)

Ray

Last edited by RayJohns; 12-23-2012 at 10:24 AM.
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