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post #61 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 04:40 PM
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If the shit hit the fan and the military deployed en masse against the US civilians, what would you do when they came down your street?

What would Frank, Kmac, WarMachine, Bohem, Dave, etc. do? The forum is filled with members that are highly trained, well armed, motivated. Sure, there's gonna be some gun owners that will just toss all their gear out on the lawn and come out with hands up, but I wouldn't be so quick to write off the whole US population as soft, iPhone clutching pussies that aren't up for a fight.

Like I said, the numerous ways that this could play out make predicting the outcome impossible.
I agree with you, except I'm not highly trained. I'm barely proficient. You have to look at your street to see who would be willing to stick their neck out. Most americans would be lambs to the slaughter (or FEMA camp). There are a bunch of guns here, but how many people are self sustaining enough to resist unsupplied? Most americans have 3 days worth of food in their pantry. They may be a bad ass with a gun, but they can't survive without food and water.

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post #62 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:06 PM
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I agree with you, except I'm not highly trained. I'm barely proficient. You have to look at your street to see who would be willing to stick their neck out. Most americans would be lambs to the slaughter (or FEMA camp). There are a bunch of guns here, but how many people are self sustaining enough to resist unsupplied? Most americans have 3 days worth of food in their pantry. They may be a bad ass with a gun, but they can't survive without food and water.
So, you take your AR-15 and your Glock to Safeway and get you some food and water at a highly discounted rate.



The fallout after the government slapdowns (Chicago in 68, Kent State in 70) was pretty epic and long lasting. Say the government declared martial law and some people resisted. A couple of families, with children, were wiped out by the National Guard, State or local Police, regular armed forces, etc. The insurgency grows and gains momentum, basically pouring gasoline on the fire. Again, I say that Syria is a very fresh example. The forces opposing the Syrian Army generally appear to be a bunch of unorganized, spray-n-pray hooligans that an army can't gain control of.
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post #63 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:12 PM
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So, you take your AR-15 and your Glock to Safeway and get you some food and water at a highly discounted rate.



The fallout after the government slapdowns (Chicago in 68, Kent State in 70) was pretty epic and long lasting. Say the government declared martial law and some people resisted. A couple of families, with children, were wiped out by the National Guard, State or local Police, regular armed forces, etc. The insurgency grows and gains momentum, basically pouring gasoline on the fire. Again, I say that Syria is a very fresh example. The forces opposing the Syrian Army generally appear to be a bunch of unorganized, spray-n-pray hooligans that an army can't gain control of.
People fight to the death over the latest Christmas toy, when they're hungry and there's food at stake while armed..... bloodbath.

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post #64 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:14 PM
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dude there is plenty of deer, cow and buffalo. No need to raid your chef-boy-r-dee cans.



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post #65 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:24 PM
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dude there is plenty of deer, cow and buffalo. No need to raid your chef-boy-r-dee cans.
The geese that live on the golf course would be the first victims. Then the ducks, then the tree rats.

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post #66 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:27 PM
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When you look at the reality of it all, and consider many of the factors that will come into play, the best answer for the American public is to wage war with their money......you starve the govt there is nothing they can do. If people withdrew all their money out of banks over a 30 day period, it would send a scary shot across the bow of people in high places that have any intelligence whatsoever. After that, the public could collapse the economy in a matter of days if they didn't buy gas, groceries, entertainment, clothes, etc. and the govt would be out of options, other than to use force, but force to do what? They would have to steal your money, and I'm betting the military is not going to allow themselves to be used for that against their own people.

Whether it's war with money or war with bullets, it's a numbers game. Who is going to be the first to stand up against the military coming through communities to collect weapons? A few people will, but they'll likely be gone quickly enough that other people considering it won't act in time, then will retreat when they see what happens. IMO, the only way the public would roll against a domestic oppressor in numbers is for the oppressor to flat out go on such an offensive that the public is convinced they "have" to fight back. In that case, if the military did actually choose to fight their own people and stick with it, then it would get ugly and it would drag on, but it will be the worst war they ever fought. Look at how difficult is was/is in Iraq and A'stan to go through towns, go door to door, and they have nowhere near the amount of weapons available as Americans do.

Bottom line is people have to decide BEFORE it happens what they're going to do, then know who they're going to be doing it with, and have the fortitude to stick to it. But how? What would realistically happen if the govt(s) found out that communities were assembling and holding meetings concerning forming what is tantamount to militias? FBI, BATF, Police, and whoever else would be visiting soon. Look how they already demonize and harass otherwise harmless militias. If they didn't visit, then I'd say there's credence to the "paranoia" argument, but when they do visit, remember you're looking into the eyes of the govt that fears you. There could be no doubt of where the truth lies at that point. Will people be willing to accept it then? For the most part I doubt it; they'll lay down, all the while telling themselves the govt will fix all this because they can't even acknowledge the truth to themselves.

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post #67 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:34 PM
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When you look at the reality of it all, and consider many of the factors that will come into play, the best answer for the American public is to wage war with their money......you starve the govt there is nothing they can do. If people withdrew all their money out of banks over a 30 day period, it would send a scary shot across the bow of people in high places that have any intelligence whatsoever. After that, the public could collapse the economy in a matter of days if they didn't buy gas, groceries, entertainment, clothes, etc. and the govt would be out of options, other than to use force, but force to do what? They would have to steal your money, and I'm betting the military is not going to allow themselves to be used for that against their own people.

Whether it's war with money or war with bullets, it's a numbers game. Who is going to be the first to stand up against the military coming through communities to collect weapons? A few people will, but they'll likely be gone quickly enough that other people considering it won't act in time, then will retreat when they see what happens. IMO, the only way the public would roll against a domestic oppressor in numbers is for the oppressor to flat out go on such an offensive that the public is convinced they "have" to fight back. In that case, if the military did actually choose to fight their own people and stick with it, then it would get ugly and it would drag on, but it will be the worst war they ever fought. Look at how difficult is was/is in Iraq and A'stan to go through towns, go door to door, and they have nowhere near the amount of weapons available as Americans do.

Bottom line is people have to decide BEFORE it happens what they're going to do, then know who they're going to be doing it with, and have the fortitude to stick to it. But how? What would realistically happen if the govt(s) found out that communities were assembling and holding meetings concerning forming what is tantamount to militias? FBI, BATF, Police, and whoever else would be visiting soon. Look how they already demonize and harass otherwise harmless militias. If they didn't visit, then I'd say there's credence to the "paranoia" argument, but when they do visit, remember you're looking into the eyes of the govt that fears you. There could be no doubt of where the truth lies at that point. Will people be willing to accept it then? For the most part I doubt it; they'll lay down, all the while telling themselves the govt will fix all this because they can't even acknowledge the truth to themselves.
All good points that I agree with.

Another factor to consider is the number of countries that would be assaulting our shores during our little scrap, when we're basically close to defenseless. The list is so long that the countries without navies could probably walk across the decks of the ships that were sailing in. It's in all of our best interests to avoid the implosion that a civil war would bring.
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post #68 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:39 PM
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If these big natural disasters (Sandy, Katrina) keep hitting the areas there hitting they might do the toilet flushing for us
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post #69 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:42 PM
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I don't know how or what it would be (although I could certainly guess), but considering the road we're on and the rate we're traveling down it, something drastic will have to happen to either remove or eliminate many of the elected officials. Anybody remaining, or replacing somebody else, will have to have a "back to basics" philosophy that can cut out the astronomical amount of parasitic BS that is entrenched in the govt and in the budget.....a "market correction" if you will. I really see no other realistic way.

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post #70 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:48 PM
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I don't know how or what it would be (although I could certainly guess), but considering the road we're on and the rate we're traveling down it, something drastic will have to happen to either remove or eliminate many of the elected officials. Anybody remaining, or replacing somebody else, will have to have a "back to basics" philosophy that can cut out the astronomical amount of parasitic BS that is entrenched in the govt and in the budget.....a "market correction" if you will. I really see no other realistic way.
Oh your 100% correct. It cant go on like this. It doesnt work at a household level and it doesnt work on a massive scale. Debt eventually catches up. It also comes to a point working will get sick of caring for the lazy. Its just a matter of time. I strongly suggest a long look at your investments. I dont suspect the dollar will be worth much in another year
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post #71 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:49 PM
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Tell you guys honestly, I find it extremely hard to see federal troops turning against civilians. Todays military are more smarter and educated than yesteryears. They know what they were fighting and they know what they'll be losing. Every state has their own legitimate standing army...the national guards. Many of them having more action time than regular army. A very high percentage of them are very educated. Do you think they'll stand by and watch federal troops roll into their communities and oppress their family members and friends? That is a very highly likely no. The day I see Americans turn on Americans in full scale combat is the day I renounce my citizenship and just eat a bullet. Everything I ever fought for would mean SHIT and my life would have meant shit. Those before us would have meant shit and we'd just shit and spit all over their graves. I'd rather die as a martyr and symbol then live to see us fighting ourselves.
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post #72 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:49 PM
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Honestly, for the US to get back to any semblance of its former self, where the country was mostly filled with people that were willing to do whatever it takes to overcome enormous hardship, we'd have to have a gigantic bitch slap. The Great Depression did that. The average family struggled to simply exist. Their priorities were family, food, shelter, hard work, living within their meager means. We're so far from that now, it's pathetic. There ain't no politician or government program () that can restore that.
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post #73 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:51 PM
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Honestly, for the US to get back to any semblance of its former self, where the country was mostly filled with people that were willing to do whatever it takes to overcome enormous hardship, we'd have to have a gigantic bitch slap. The Great Depression did that. The average family struggled to simply exist. Their priorities were family, food, shelter, hard work, living within their meager means. We're so far from that now, it's pathetic. There ain't no politician or government program () that can restore that.
The mind set and make up of the population was also a lot stronger at that point in time. Christ people would have a fit if they had to go a day without TV, to hell with food
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post #74 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 05:54 PM
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Tell you guys honestly, I find it extremely hard to see federal troops turning against civilians. Todays military are more smarter and educated than yesteryears. They know what they were fighting and they know what they'll be losing. Every state has their own legitimate standing army...the national guards. Many of them having more action time than regular army. A very high percentage of them are very educated. Do you think they'll stand by and watch federal troops roll into their communities and oppress their family members and friends? That is a very highly likely no. The day I see Americans turn on Americans in full scale combat is the day I renounce my citizenship and just eat a bullet. Everything I ever fought for would mean SHIT and my life would have meant shit. Those before us would have meant shit and we'd just shit and spit all over their graves. I'd rather die as a martyr and symbol then live to see us fighting ourselves.
I see where you're coming from, but disagree. The country that emerged from the ashes would need people like you. We deal with the situation as best we can, make the best decisions we know how to, and continue to carry on.

Hey, we don't want Berkeley to become the new US capital.


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post #75 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 06:10 PM
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post #76 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 06:22 PM
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When you look at the reality of it all, and consider many of the factors that will come into play, the best answer for the American public is to wage war with their money......you starve the govt there is nothing they can do. If people withdrew all their money out of banks over a 30 day period, it would send a scary shot across the bow of people in high places that have any intelligence whatsoever. After that, the public could collapse the economy in a matter of days if they didn't buy gas, groceries, entertainment, clothes, etc. and the govt would be out of options, other than to use force, but force to do what? They would have to steal your money, and I'm betting the military is not going to allow themselves to be used for that against their own people.

Whether it's war with money or war with bullets, it's a numbers game. Who is going to be the first to stand up against the military coming through communities to collect weapons? A few people will, but they'll likely be gone quickly enough that other people considering it won't act in time, then will retreat when they see what happens. IMO, the only way the public would roll against a domestic oppressor in numbers is for the oppressor to flat out go on such an offensive that the public is convinced they "have" to fight back. In that case, if the military did actually choose to fight their own people and stick with it, then it would get ugly and it would drag on, but it will be the worst war they ever fought. Look at how difficult is was/is in Iraq and A'stan to go through towns, go door to door, and they have nowhere near the amount of weapons available as Americans do.

Bottom line is people have to decide BEFORE it happens what they're going to do, then know who they're going to be doing it with, and have the fortitude to stick to it. But how? What would realistically happen if the govt(s) found out that communities were assembling and holding meetings concerning forming what is tantamount to militias? FBI, BATF, Police, and whoever else would be visiting soon. Look how they already demonize and harass otherwise harmless militias. If they didn't visit, then I'd say there's credence to the "paranoia" argument, but when they do visit, remember you're looking into the eyes of the govt that fears you. There could be no doubt of where the truth lies at that point. Will people be willing to accept it then? For the most part I doubt it; they'll lay down, all the while telling themselves the govt will fix all this because they can't even acknowledge the truth to themselves.
Your retirement will be next. They are already borrowing from federal employees and social security, why not private retirements?

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I don't know how or what it would be (although I could certainly guess), but considering the road we're on and the rate we're traveling down it, something drastic will have to happen to either remove or eliminate many of the elected officials. Anybody remaining, or replacing somebody else, will have to have a "back to basics" philosophy that can cut out the astronomical amount of parasitic BS that is entrenched in the govt and in the budget.....a "market correction" if you will. I really see no other realistic way.
That would be the only way to stave off disaster, but this last election was the last chance we had. The electorate was further polarized, guaranteeing disaster.

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Tell you guys honestly, I find it extremely hard to see federal troops turning against civilians. Todays military are more smarter and educated than yesteryears. They know what they were fighting and they know what they'll be losing. Every state has their own legitimate standing army...the national guards. Many of them having more action time than regular army. A very high percentage of them are very educated. Do you think they'll stand by and watch federal troops roll into their communities and oppress their family members and friends? That is a very highly likely no. The day I see Americans turn on Americans in full scale combat is the day I renounce my citizenship and just eat a bullet. Everything I ever fought for would mean SHIT and my life would have meant shit. Those before us would have meant shit and we'd just shit and spit all over their graves. I'd rather die as a martyr and symbol then live to see us fighting ourselves.
If by fighting the governments enemies, their families were fed and kept safe, while the rest starve.... Yes.

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The mind set and make up of the population was also a lot stronger at that point in time. Christ people would have a fit if they had to go a day without TV, to hell with food
The skill set and work ethic were different as well. They knew HOW to survive without help. They had small farms and gardens as well as a job in town. They could can and preserve food for the winter without refrigeration and all this high fangled crap.

I hate to say it, but a true reset would do this country some good with a little social engineering. The well equipped, smart and diligent will survive, the lemmings will fall off the cliff.

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post #77 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 06:55 PM
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If by fighting the governments enemies, their families were fed and kept safe, while the rest starve.... Yes.
You give them too little credit. When I was in, we joined for whatever reason knowing there was a high chance where our training would be put to the test. They were. If you think the majority of us were fighting because our government said so, you're sadly mistaken. The military culture has changed drasticially. We do understand chain of command and we do know the orders, but we're not mindless drones. We'll follow those orders to the T, but don't think we'll follow those orders blindly. There are lines that just won't be crossed. I'm still heavily tied to the military and I can honestly tell you that the majority would not turn on civilians if the government told them to.
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post #78 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 07:23 PM
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You give them too little credit. When I was in, we joined for whatever reason knowing there was a high chance where our training would be put to the test. They were. If you think the majority of us were fighting because our government said so, you're sadly mistaken. The military culture has changed drasticially. We do understand chain of command and we do know the orders, but we're not mindless drones. We'll follow those orders to the T, but don't think we'll follow those orders blindly. There are lines that just won't be crossed. I'm still heavily tied to the military and I can honestly tell you that the majority would not turn on civilians if the government told them to.
CAn you say the same for FEMA, Homeland security, the FBI and such? I don't want to believe the common joe would do it, but I'm sure some would. Most cops wouldn't. They are civilians after all.

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post #79 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 07:35 PM
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Why not just lose a bunch of ballots to ensure an election outcome?

http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/11/mi...#ixzz2BbUKd4uz

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post #80 of 120 (permalink) Old 11-08-2012, 07:38 PM
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I'm not sure it would start out as a full assault on citizens. It would more likely begin with enforcing some kind of curfew after some kind of riots break out, etc. Then probably progress to traveling neighborhood to neighborhood to "police" the area, then get more involved step by step. At some point, they will likely get fired on, and what are they going to do? They're going to fire back. It can certainly escalate step by step in a manner that they see as being OK. If they were just initially ordered to duke it out with citizens, though, I don't see them buying into that.

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