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Differences between Tune-ECU tune implementations

10K views 42 replies 10 participants last post by  mjkuhno 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi All,

First - my apologies if this has been covered before, but I did a bit of search, read a bunch of previous threads and didn't see specific information which answered my question so I thought I'd start a new thread. I'm trying to wrap my head around the options available from the different sources of ECU flashing and would appreciate some input.

If my understanding is correct, there are multiple methods to get an ECU flashed:
  • send it to someone reputable to get a flash
  • purchase Tune-ECU hardware and push the flash yourself

Now - I know there are multiple sources for each and am trying to weigh the pros/cons of each method. From what I understand, each flash will really be a starting point to get an 'unrestricted' bike. From there the I assume you need to consider whether the setup used in the tune matches your bike build (re: stock baseline vs. mild mod with exhaust, filter etc.) for a baseline.

I'd heard that some of the vendors make their tune available through a 'library' available in TuneEcu if you purchase the TuneECU hardware from them (Graves) - but again this is really a best match option if you have their specific components (and say, not an Arrow pipe etc.). On the flip side, I'm aware of one company where you can get your ECU flashed - but they don't make the file available if you have the TuneECU hardware; so any subsequent improvements they make to their tune requires you to send them your ECU again.

Additionally - assuming you're really trying to tune for your specific bike - post flash you will most likely still need some form of piggyback module (PoweCommander or Bazzaz) to fine tune on top of the flash.

And finally I understand that TuneECU is coming out with some form of "auto-tune" capability which may negate auto-tune with the piggyback modules but may be beneficial to be used in conjunction with each method (at least theoretically, depending on how it's implemented).

Is this all correct?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Fantastic questions. Subscribed. (BTW will you be at VIR with PRE this coming Monday? RocketDan will have his R1 there. Would love to talk shop if you're going to be there)

Before I get very far let me say 2 things. I'm not a tuner -and- I've not actually done any of this before. I'm waiting to get my bike broken in before attempting any kind of exhaust and tune. Having said that...


If my understanding is correct, there are multiple methods to get an ECU flashed:
  • send it to someone reputable to get a flash
  • purchase Tune-ECU hardware and push the flash yourself
That is my understanding as well yes. There are a few places that you can send your ECU to get it flashed. Superbike Unlimited and FTecu are the two I've heard of most.

I went with option #2. I bought this kit: FlashTune ECU Type 18 Yamaha R1 2015 Bench Tuner Kit. I did this because I didn't want to spend a bunch of time shipping my ECU back and forth when all they're really doing is just loading up some pre-defined map and sending it back to me.


I'd heard that some of the vendors make their tune available through a 'library' available in TuneEcu if you purchase the TuneECU hardware from them (Graves)
Yes that is correct. This is what I did. Once you buy the TFecu kit you register on their site and download their software. Their software includes a bunch of 'pre-defined' maps.


Additionally - assuming you're really trying to tune for your specific bike - post flash you will most likely still need some form of piggyback module (PoweCommander or Bazzaz) to fine tune on top of the flash.
Ugh. I really hope not. That's a ton of money when you include the base reflash. Looking at the screenshots of the FTecu software it looks exactly like the tuning software provided by people like Dynojet. The entire mapping table is available for you to customize, save as your own map, then flash the ECU with your custom map. Also, FTecu's FAQ page has a question about custom tuning. Their answer leads me to believe you can fully adjust the maps yoruself. See here: FT ECU Inc. » support This is where a good dyno tuner comes in. I would never touch those settings as I've got no idea what I'm doing. Again let me re-iterrate I've not actually done any of this yet, so I'm making some fairly big assumptions based on what I've read and seen so far!

Here is a screenshot from FTecu's quick start guide. Above it they say you can make any change to the file: https://ftecu.com/images/changes.png


Honestly it is all a bit overwhelming for me as well. I'm hoping somebody who has actually done this can chime in here. I'm assuming I can simply get my mid-pipe and can installed, base flash it using the Graves unrestricted map, then take the entire bike to somebody like Jim at Maxspeed and let him tune it using the FTecu software.
 
#5 ·
Fantastic questions. Subscribed. (BTW will you be at VIR with PRE this coming Monday? RocketDan will have his R1 there. Would love to talk shop if you're going to be there)
Yep - need one last fix of riding VIR North before the end of the season! Definitely stop by!!


Honestly it is all a bit overwhelming for me as well. I'm hoping somebody who has actually done this can chime in here. I'm assuming I can simply get my mid-pipe and can installed, base flash it using the Graves unrestricted map, then take the entire bike to somebody like Jim at Maxspeed and let him tune it using the FTecu software.
Actually I spoke with Jim the weekend I bought the bike and told him the R1 will definitely be spending some time on his dyno in the off season (he did great work on my D675!)

Will have to see how this all turns out.

See ya Monday!
 
#3 · (Edited)
Oh wait!.....Sicilian Racing #413.....You ride with N2 right? MonkeyMan!......I know you!....I saw you guys at NCBike this year.

You are talking about your 2015 R1 Right?......So everywhere you say TuneECU, you mean Flash-Tune. Just about everything is correct in your OP. The image you load into your ECU is a starting point (unless you are happy enough with a canned tune) and it gives you much more adjustment power than a Bazzaz would, such as direct access to the throttle by wire tables and ignition maps. As of yet, there is no auto-tune module from F-T, but they have been claiming that they have one in the works for a while now.

Right now, a flash tune interface plus a good tuner that really knows his way around F-T and some dyno time, would be all that you would need.

Or if you wanted to just be basically roughed in, you could use the grave's locked down ecu image that they provide.

The other option is to build your own ECU image, with a bazzaz +auto-tune, and we could walk through that too....but I think you already get that idea....

What do you have now, and where do you want to go with the bike? What do you want to change?

Go to F-T's web page and make an account and download the software. Look at it, open images, and see what you can do. You can look at the maps, and what not. You can do this without buying anything, to get your self familiar with what you would be getting your self into.

But basically, for 380 for the interface....vs 200 for a single flash from either F-T or SBU or Graves or whatever, the interface is worth having so that you can go in and make changes....after the fact when more go fast parts come out like stacks, or some new exhaust etc. Tuner's have also been known to use your interface and F-T account to flash your bike, so that you end up with the ECU image that they made on the dyno, and so your ECU is still locked to your own account (a good tuner better allow you to do this....if not go elsewhere...).

If you have any other questions....just let me know.....

If you do get F-T and an AT.....I can help you build an ECU image for your bike...even at the track next year I can help you out with it.....I am the one who built the R1-Forum 09-14 images that everyone really likes, so I am sure that we can get you up and running easy enough....


PS: You guys can ask questions in this thread....don't bother reading the whole thread....it is just a help thread, and there are lots of knowledgeable people that monitor that thread including myself....so there is no dumb question that can be posted there.
http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/10-appearance-mods/326778-flashtune-ecu-flashing-interface.html
Basically any questions in that thread will get more attention by more people and quicker answers than making a new thread, or posting here in this current thread.

There is also the FAQ thread that I have put together here:
http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/10-a...faq-please-read-before-posting-questions.html
I haven't got much 15 specific info in there yet, but there is only a small part that is different on the 15. All of the tuning stiff is 99% exactly the same as the 09-14 info.
 
#6 ·
Oh wait!.....Sicilian Racing #413.....You ride with N2 right? MonkeyMan!......I know you!....I saw you guys at NCBike this year.
Cool - I didn't realize we met in the 'real world'; that's great! Yeah, I did a weekend this year at NCBike with N2. Actually, that was my first weekend with the new R1 on NCBike and I basically learned the hard way just how much you can push the stock RS10 tires. Saved a low side in T1 while I was on my right knee....nothing like the feeling of a bike with less than 300 miles on it sliding away from you at a high rate of speed. I guess I must've learned a little something from track days and watching racing as instinctively leaned my body in a little more and did my best to push the bike up on the meat of the tire...but it did scare the crap out of me. Had to go out next session on my D675 to get my nerves back and finally got my N2 A bump sticker. Lenny laughed at me afterwards and told me maybe I should stick with the D675!

You are talking about your 2015 R1 Right?......So everywhere you say TuneECU, you mean Flash-Tune.
Yeah, old habits die hard....Tune-ECU is for the Triumph and I'm apparently a monkeyhead.

Just about everything is correct in your OP. The image you load into your ECU is a starting point (unless you are happy enough with a canned tune) and it gives you much more adjustment power than a Bazzaz would, such as direct access to the throttle by wire tables and ignition maps. As of yet, there is no auto-tune module from F-T, but they have been claiming that they have one in the works for a while now.

Right now, a flash tune interface plus a good tuner that really knows his way around F-T and some dyno time, would be all that you would need.

Or if you wanted to just be basically roughed in, you could use the grave's locked down ecu image that they provide.

The other option is to build your own ECU image, with a bazzaz +auto-tune, and we could walk through that too....but I think you already get that idea....

What do you have now, and where do you want to go with the bike? What do you want to change?
OK - understood. The weekend I bought my bike I spoke with Jim Eglinger of MaxSpeed Cycles. Jim's a great guy; he tuned my D675 and it runs like a beast (though not like a litre bike). When Jim and I spoke he wasn't too familiar w/ Flash-Tune for the new R1 so after I talked to the guys at Bazzaz I decided to go that route for the time being and loaded their 3/4 tune (which was apparently done for the Akrapovic pipe). While it's probably a bit different than my Austin Racing exhaust I figured it was close for a starting point to have a decent setup while I learned the bike.

Now, as the season starts to wind down I'm starting to plan for the inevitable off season (which thankfully isn't here just yet!) mods and trying to educate myself as best as I can of all available options.

If you have any other questions....just let me know.....

If you do get F-T and an AT.....I can help you build an ECU image for your bike...even at the track next year I can help you out with it.....I am the one who built the R1-Forum 09-14 images that everyone really likes, so I am sure that we can get you up and running easy enough....
Thx for the offer of help - I may take you up on that...and will check the other threads again as well. Hell - after I learn something I might even be able to contribute there ;)
 
#7 ·
Whassup Ruhe!

Yeah - we haven't been able to hang out since earlier this year; I told you I was seriously considering this beastie!

Alright - let's touch base Sunday night/Monday at North.
 
#8 · (Edited)
:thumbup...I've seen you there a few times going back a few years with TPM too...I was at the PRE VIR South 2014 fundraiser and landed on my head first lap....:lol


I look forward to seeing you next season. Hopefully dominion gets sorted out and is an awesome track.


Like I said, drop your questions in the help thread. Many knowledgeable folks here.
 
#9 ·
Hey mjkuhno would love to hear if you've discovered anything new regarding tuning the R1.

I spoke with Jim at Maxspeed last week. He said he hadn't tuned any '15 R1s yet just 3 pulls for HP numbers. We had a good long talk about options. I told him that I had the FTecu bench tune. He said he hadn't used that software yet and had lots of questions for me I couldn't answer. I sent a bunch of questions via email to FTecu but haven't heard back yet.

Basically Jim wanted to know: Is there an additional subscription cost to be able to do a full custom map or can I only upload existing maps from FTecu? Can existing maps (like Graves or unrestricted maps) be copied and tuned?

Their quick start guide seems to indicate the answer is "No" and "Yes" to those questions, but he wanted a confirmation before committing to help with an FTecu tune...

Like I said... no answer from FTecu yet...
 
#11 ·
Funny - I was thinking about giving Jim a call the other day too.

From what I understand, based on a few conversations about FTECU (including discussions Graves and SBU) the Graves, SBU etc. maps are locked. You could load them and most likely get good performance but can't edit them.

I believe the unrestricted maps can be modified - but I have not confirmed that yet.

I'm sort of struggling with this whole idea as well, which is why after a discussion w/ Jim in July (when I bought my bike) I purchased a Bazzaz and set it to the 3/4 aftermarket exhaust. Figured it could be used throughout the remainder of the season to get 'in the ballpark' and then figure out over the winter what to do. Just haven't reached that 2nd part just yet.
 
#10 ·
Hi All,


Additionally - assuming you're really trying to tune for your specific bike - post flash you will most likely still need some form of piggyback module (PoweCommander or Bazzaz) to fine tune on top of the flash.
I got to have a long hard look at an AMA Superstock 1000 R1 this year. It was running the Flashtune "Barber" map, and had a Bazazz unit for Autotune duties.
 
#12 · (Edited)
The unrestricted image can be modified, just not certain sections like TC, and the blipper which you need a race package or a blipper kit respectively.

You could load the fuel map that you used with the Bazzaz AT. Then zero the AT, and start again.....you could also make timing changes, and use the AT to tune to that new change.
 
#14 ·
I just got a reply from FTecu. These are the answers I got and they seem to align with what mjkuhno and Tad158 said:

Does my tuner need a Race Team Subscription or Professional Package to make a custom map or does the free software available from your site allow full access to all settings and will allow him to make a fully custom tuned map?
The Professional Race Team Package is offered for customers that feel their Data/Tuning Engineers can create a better set up with rider aids than our development team. This package allows you to make mapping changes with the rider aid features on your bike.

If you are not comfortable making changes in these areas, we offer a Subscription Package that offer the rider aid developments we are racing with at each round of the FIM/AMA Moto America Championship. These files will not allow for mapping changes to be made with any of the rider aid features.


Can we copy the un-restricted map and custom tune it? Can we copy the Graves cat-eliminator map and custom tune it?
The Unrestricted files you see in the File Manager are editable. You can use this file as a base and go from there, or you can start with a stock file if you like. The Graves Motorsports files we host do allow for some changes to be made, however these are limited.

After I hook up my computer to the Data-Link and my ECU is the ECU and Data-Link registered to only my computer? Can I only access my ECU via my specific computer? Or can I simply take my data-link and bike to my tuner, have him install your software on his dyno computer, and have him tune the bike?
In order for your tuner to make changes to your ECU, he will need your registered Bench Flashing Kit. You can access the Tuning Suite with as many computers as you like, your tuner will need to download the Tuning Suite and log in with your user name and password to make any changes to your ECU.



Some good info here. I think I'm going to load the un-restricted map onto my bike, install the block-off plates, mid-pipe+can, and take it to Jim at Maxspeed and let him learn the FTecu software while he tunes my bike.
 
#16 ·
Some good info here. I think I'm going to load the un-restricted map onto my bike, install the block-off plates, mid-pipe+can, and take it to Jim at Maxspeed and let him learn the FTecu software while he tunes my bike.
Could I ask a favor? Could you please post up to this thread or PM me when you do this and let me know the results? I was just looking at this and considering my options yet again.

Thx
- Mike
 
#15 ·
Yep...just remember that the unrestricted image is just a starting point. Nothing is really optimised. There is a lot left on the table in the, especially in the ignition timing maps.
 
#21 ·
Good day,

Any updates on these? thanks
No not yet sorry. Got the exhaust on last night. Tonight I flash the ECU to the unrestricted map. I'm hoping to get it delivered to Maxspeed either this weekend or next. Then Jim will probably have it for a few days to tune it.

I haven't forgotten about this thread. I'll post up as soon as I have some viable results!
 
#24 ·
I am running FTECU with the unrestricted Flash in my stock R1M until i get my exhaust

Should my closed loop be enable or disable ? I think the bike is currently not using the 02sensors as it smell much richer at idle.

Any benefits to disabling it ? I was going to ref lash it to let the 02 sensors read the afr but Im new to these bikes so not sure

The throttle is much smoother than with factory flash
 
#25 ·
The unrestricted ftecu flash disables closed loop so the o2 sensors won't be used. My understanding is that the o2 sensors are there for mileage and emissions reasons. At full throttle the bike uses the fuel tables within the ecu and the o2 sensors aren't used, same as in a car. I haven't noticed my gas mileage change since mine have been disabled. Someone with more experience may have a different take on it.

 
#28 ·
Very cool - I need to set aside some time and give Jim a call.

I went with the on-bike model instead of bench, so that should give Jim the opportunity to see if there's differences he's able to do when it's on the bike.

196 is definitely in line with what others had posted up - but I'm as much (or more) interested in the linear power curve.
 
#34 ·
btw I suggest that they be left ON if a full tune for the engine and modifications has not been completed on the bike in question. Also be left on if you ride on the street, as steady state rpm running rich can cause issues with carbon build up, mostly, and a few other concerns.
 
#35 ·
Took the bike for a ride today my M is all stock except for FTECU unrestricted map

There seems to bay way bigger flat spot in the power band in 5-6-7000 rpm range then a nice pick up in power after that

Going to need the pipe and dyno tune faster than i thought to smooth that power curve out

Anyone know if the stock flash available in FTECU tuning suite is better than what comes in the california bikes or is the same one I wrote over when installing unrestricted map
 
#39 ·
I can't remember exactly....but if you disable EXUP in the Flastune, and still have it physically on the bike (stock exhaust), it may be holding the flapper shut. I believe that it is designed to be held shut with the spring, not open. this would make the flat spot worse.
 
#36 ·
Because the unrestricted image is not a tune, just removes the factory restrictions. It is a base for creating a good tune. Stock or not, it is not a tune:fact
 
#37 ·
I wasn't aware of that when i bought it ! If you ftecu site they have link to this article from sport rider

A Flash of Brilliance | Yamaha YZF-R1 Project | Sport Rider

Talk about mis leading..... Im cool with it but I thought i was unrestricting the bike and picking up power by having throttles open all the way and getting the top speed limiter removed and so on.....didn't know the unrestricted flash would create a flat spot that the stock mapping dosent have.....

Im going to flash the factory map back in the bike for now till I can get a real tune done. I don't want to drive the bike around on some unfinished baseline map.....The factory yamaha guys must have spent a lot of time tuning the power delivery and so on just bummed i thought it would at least be as good as the factory map thru out the power band
 
#40 ·
Yep...that looks about right....it is just a base image.....
 
#43 ·
Ah - the PRE season opener at VIR North eh? Looking forward to being back on North myself. Stop by and say hi! Just look for the MonkeyFlag (and the R1 of course).
 
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