I have been riding my 99 R1 for 3 months now. Yes I am still a rookie or as you would say a squid.

I am getting comfortable on the bike and have a question about cornering.

I find it easier to turn at speed if I countersteer. I get the bike down a decent amount and it feels good. When I watch racers on tv, they never countersteer, they lean their body with the bike.

Which method is better? Is countersteering easier?

Hopefully I will not get flammed, I just want to learn to ride better.

All racers counter steer in addition to hanging off the motorcycle. You don't have to do only one or the other in fact the best way to cornre fast is to do both. Hanging off the bike allows you to steer more with less lean angle.:thumbup

Take an MSF course - they'll teach you a great deal about countersteering. The fact is you have to counter steer to make the bike turn at speed - you have to get the front weel out of the way to turn.

Take a course - you'll learn the old (left turn - Look Left, Press Left, Go Left ...etc.

If you don't counter steer at all, you'll go straight on.

Have a look at http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/uk/machinery.shtml

and check out "The No BS Bike"

Thanks for your help guys. I am going to take a course in the next month.

try checking out the knowledge is not power thread in this section, might help you.

i'm a big fan of countersteering, but i don't use it all the time. long sweeping turns, i just lean, but on the quick turns, i get a much better response out of the countersteer method.

natas - you have to use counter steering or you'd go straight on. Are you saying that you don't consciously use it unless your on tight turns, in which case you sort of give it normal counter steer plus a bit more?

I used to swear that you could get round a corner by leaning alone, I think it took the California Superbike Schools web site to make me realse I'd already been using a certain amount of counter steer without realising it.

gmbnj.... you think you don't countersteer?? well you are wrong..we all countersteer....


do this:

sit straight up on the chair. Pull your arms straight in front of you...now, with your arms extended like that, lean your body to the right....see whats happening?your right arm is pushing away while left one is pulling to you....there is your countersteering....

On a long sweepers, I don't countersteer as much, but on the sharp 15-25mph turns, I initiate the turn by countersteering.

Originally posted by gmbnj
...I find it easier to turn at speed if I countersteer. I get the bike down a decent amount and it feels good. When I watch racers on tv, they never countersteer, they lean their body with the bike...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you confusing body positioning with countersteering? If you are positioning your body to the opposite side of centerline from the direction of a turn, that is simply bad positioning. Countersteering has to do with turning the bars opposite the direction of the turn.

Originally posted by Maxxym
sit straight up on the chair. Pull your arms straight in front of you...now, with your arms extended like that, lean your body to the right....see whats happening?your right arm is pushing away while left one is pulling to you....there is your countersteering....Maxxym,

The reason this happens is that you have bad technique. The only time you should put any input into the bars is when you consciously put input into the bars.

You should be able to position your upper body anywhere you want without putting one bit of steering input into the bars. You should also be able to move your lower body around without putting one bit of steering input into the bars.

Countersteering should be an "on purpose" thing! It should not just happen when you move your body.

Scott

winders, it was only an example man... I am not saying that I ride with my arms extended sitting on a chair...

Originally posted by Maxxym
winders, it was only an example man... I am not saying that I ride with my arms extended sitting on a chair...
LOL :finger :finger

Maxxym,

I didn't use the chair in my reply. I assumed you used the example you did to demonstrate what happens when you are on a bike.

Are you saying your example sucks and is not an example of what you do when you ride? If yes, why did you use the example in the first place?

I am not a mind reader and no one else here is either. If you try to explain something with an example, don't back track when someone points out an error in your technique.

Scott

ok then... don't we all countersteer if we go over 25mph????????????

why dont we get jason pridmore and keith code in here so they can go at the countersteer vs body position/steer as well!:D :D :D :D

I think you need both. you would have to. you cant have one without the other to ride well. I tried one time to ride a section of twisties sitting straight up on the bike, knees in on the tank and I ONLY pushed on the bars to turn. Let me tell you that ceased after about 2 turns after I almost wrecked. You have to be smooth, relaxed and flow with the bike. You shouldnt have to push really hard to try and get the bike down farther in a turn, just apply more throttle/let you arms hang loose from the elbows, and look farther into the turn. The bike will do the rest.

Body positioning is very important too. Remember to set up BEFORE the turn. Dont try to hang off and turn at the same time. WEll, lets not turn this into a school lesson. Back to the original question. Yes you need to countersteer but your position on the bike is very important as well. When you are doing it right, you should be doing it without thinking about it. Take a MSF course and ride within your limits. If you can afford it, take a trackday and use that time to explore the performance capabilities of your bike in a relatively safe environment.:) :thumbup

New guy, is that the faster you're going around the turns you'll actually use more countersteer to get the bike down. It took me a while to figure it myself . I kept wondering why I still had strips on my front tire and none on the rear. As my entry speeds increased the amount of strip in the front decreased. Also the quicker I leaned in the more strip was gone. Another thought. You might want to get a 180 rear. It is a very real and felt improvement on handling. 190 looks cool , but 180 does the job.

i can't agree more w/ changing to a 180. turn in is much quicker. why do think that most race tires only come in 180????:beer

Originally posted by RCwhat
i can't agree more w/ changing to a 180. turn in is much quicker. why do think that most race tires only come in 180????:beer Then explain why all the racers that use 16.5" rear wheels (every AMA SB, World SB, and MotoGP racer) run 195mm wide tires......

Scott

The Oct issue of Sport Rider has a section on this in the back of the magazine. It give explainations and examples of both. A good article for newbies.....like me. Im still having a hard time getting myself to countersteer, its just not natural. Good luck

Originally posted by spdrcrj
Im still having a hard time getting myself to countersteer, its just not natural. Good luck Sure it is. You've been doing it since you learned how to ride a bicycle! Now that you are aware of it, it seems weird and counter intuitive.

Scott

Countersteering is the most effective steering technique you will learn. I use to push when I countersteered but now I'm pulling the bar (ie. to go left I pull the right bar to my waist very deliberately). Once you get the hang of it and stop thinking about doing it, it's unbelievable how fast you can enter a corner. Learn about adding pivot steering to it and it'll open up a whole new world for you, I swear to God.

Pulling the bar may work for you, but it is not the best way to countersteer. This is not something you should suggest to others since pushing on the inside bar is far more effective unless you have some physical limitation.

Scott

I push the inside bar but I don't "think" about it. It's something that I noticed lately after doing it for so long. Why do you see a problem with pulling the outside bar? Please explain.

The major reason is that you have more leverage pushing the bar. Also, you are stronger pushing the bar than pulling it. You will be more accurate with the amount of input. Pushing is a more natural thing to do.

Is that not enough?

Scott

Hmmm, don't know about pushing giving you more leverage. You're using your pecs and triceps to push, biceps and lats to pull. probably more leverage pulling....interesting thought. I may be wrong.

To initiate the turn you gotta countersteer, preferably quickly and with committment. After CSS you gotta believe it.

However, once the bike is on it's side, things get a bit interesting. You can widen your line with the throttle and no bar input, and you can tighten it with very light (less than ~5% of your total) braking. Weighting the pegs is also much more effective when you're at lean. This is what they teach at Fast Freddie and it works too. No it's not unconscious countersteering.

The way I like to think of it is that 90% of the turning input comes from countersteering but it is a very powerful way to give the bike input. The last 10% can be made up with body steering, throttle, and yes very gentle aplication of the brakes.

You don't rely on the light 10% to get the bike on it's side in a hurry going into a hard turn at 90mph. You also don't want to toss in that hard 90% when you need to tune or correct your line mid-corner.

Anybody agree?

Ok, I have ridden bikes as (as in motorcylces and bicycles for almost 10 years now) and I would tell you it is impossible to steer (above 10mph) without countersteering. Even if you think you are not countersteering, for a split second you are. Just to get the bike leaned over. As an engineer, I can tell you, if you steer the same direction you want to go, it want go that direction, you HAVE to countersteer for a split second. That is just fizix.

Thanks 9mile. That was very informative. I'll go out and work on my countersteering and peg weighting some more.

I guess I wasn't clear about my countersteering. I still push because I use my opposite peg to start the motion but at the same time I'm pushing I'm also pulling on the other bar. It seems to work ok for me but maybe your way will improve my riding. I appreciate the help guys.:)

"Take a course - you'll learn the old (left turn - Look Left, Press Left, Go Left ...etc."
Wow I just had a huge flashback... Just finished my last class on Saturday. Highly recommed it.
:hellobye

To counter steer or not to countersteer?

There is no option.

Eyespy-

Beautiful bike man:thumbup Where'd you get them red headlight covers? And more importantly, what's a good place to get black ones? Preferrably ones that the light still goes through. thx.

Originally posted by 9mile
Hmmm, don't know about pushing giving you more leverage. You're using your pecs and triceps to push, biceps and lats to pull. probably more leverage pulling....interesting thought. I may be wrong.
You are wrong. Ask any physical trainer. You are stonger pushing than you are pulling.

Scott

Originally posted by Goose
Eyespy-

Beautiful bike man:thumbup Where'd you get them red headlight covers? And more importantly, what's a good place to get black ones? Preferrably ones that the light still goes through. thx. It's call "red duct tape" or "red racer's tape". You can get the black stuff at any big "home" store. The light won't go through it very well though....

Scott

Originally posted by winders
It's call "red duct tape" or "red racer's tape". You can get the black stuff at any big "home" store. The light won't go through it very well though....

Scott

Smartass eh? I couldn't tell (from the avatar) if it was tape or not. Anyone out there know a good place for headlight covers "not tape"?

"You try to ask a simple question, but someone's ego always gets in the way" "At least it was a simple answer" for my "simple" lil mind.:bash

Oh I know, I should have noticed from the avatar that he's "racing" on a "racetrack" therefore I should have naturally "assumed" that it was simply "tape", I just wish I was as great a guy as "Scott" and the great way he uses "quotes" to make "funny" little statements.

here you go buddy

www.tricktape.com

www.envisiongraphics.com

www.planetsuperbike.com

Happy shopping

Cheers:beer

thank you sir:thumbup

:cool: :beer

Goose, it is tape. But you are probably more interested in the perf'ed headlight covers sold by tricktape, that are supposed to let most of the light through, that come in different colors. My headlight fuse is pulled.

http://www.tricktape.com/images/products/tillermain.jpg

TrickTape LightLidz (http://www.tricktape.com/product.asp?0=378&1=385&3=995)

Goose,

Ego? All I did was answer the question about what was covering the headlights. Just because you didn't like the answer doesn't mean it was my ego.

By the way, putting quotes around text to separate it out is perfectly normal.

Walk it off, crybaby!

Scott

Scott-

The question was never directed towards you, I appreciate the answer but I wasn't asking you, I was asking eyespy.

Eyespy-

Thanks man, BTW that bike still looks bad as hell, something about them red ones :cool: I've wanted a set of headlight covers forever (for the street-non tape), just can't decide on the right ones. I definitely do not want the ones that have an eye painted on them, don't like 'em. I was thinking either red or black, and if I can use them at night that's a bonus as well. Anyone have experience with these or some on their bikes? Do they mount with simple vel-cro(sp?) or do you have to glue 'em? Thanks in advance.

I have to post this because I wanted you to know that I spent the last 3 days working on increasing my speeds through several corners on my favorite set of backroads and I couldn't seem to get my entry speed faster until I started consciously "pushing" my countersteering. Your comment about "pushing" being more natural than "pulling" in this application is very true. I returned to consciously "pushing" and my turn in was quickened as well as my confidence to enter at higher rates of speed. I just wanted to express my appreciation. Thanks for getting me back on track. I can't wait to ride again tomorrow! :jump

The_Violator,

You're welcome!! I am glad you could take what I wrote and turn it into a tangible improvement in your riding.

Sharing information that helps make each other better riders is what it is all about!

Scott

you are all wrong! I have perfected a system that makes that rossi fellow look silly, I came up with this while watching a nascar sprint race( it was only a 400 miler) it is quite simple, I put a full beer can in the gutter I ripped off my trailer, nail this gutter to my tank. this is were it gets difficult, when I want to turn, I pick up the beer with the arm on the side I want to turn, y'know, drink left, turn left. anyways the extra wieght on that side coupled with the wind resistance will make the harley steer, see easy! :beer :beer :ugh


yeah,yeah stupid joke, I know...:bash

winders/Scott,

Shouldn't this be in the "stunters" section? LOL, j/k man plz don't get excited:p