09 Motor work.

xxx

Wow. Wasting no time ripping that thing apart! Great pics. Very informative actually. Please keep us updated on the modifications.

thanks for the pics man. Looks crazy...lol

so what did the baseline dyno run look like?

Thanks for the pics and info. Very interesting.

One of the weird things is they want you to remove the cams with #1 cylinder at 105degrees BTDC. is that just because that's where the timing marks all line up? thanks for sharing, it is appreciated! :thumbup

Do you know what oil filter the 09 uses. My break in is about done, so I need to change the oil.

The rotor has a big K, "t" and "f". But you have to line up to "K" to see notches on the sprockets also. But you can still line up to TDC on #1 and install them that way also, just funny how the pistons look when you line up to "K". Cams are funky looking also. Very nice to look in the motor and see something totally different. maybe a stupid question but, I'm guessing that "T" is TDC BUT what is "F"? Full speed ahead? :lol

maybe a stupid question but, I'm guessing that "T" is TDC BUT what is "F"? Full speed ahead? :lol F= FAST MOFO!! :fact :lol

I looked at the euro fiche and it's the same part number as 08. Thank you sir!!

is it just me or can you actually see the shape of the flame propogation on the top of the pistons - or am i just seeing things?

That's what you're seeing....one advantage of not having many miles.

no chance you measured the squish stock is there? be interesting to know... also the stock lobe centers..

Very interesting... no procrastination with you thats for sure... thanks for sharing

looking good d

awesome information. Thank you. Usually you have to wait a year or more for this kind of info.

piston to head with stock head gasket averaged out to .72mm. PTV intake was around 1.14mm at 12degrees, exh around 2.2mm at 12degrees. doesn't leave a lot of room for thinner (YEC) gaskets.

Doing pth, ptv, and hopefully deck height if I can find some spacers today. Lobe centers are supposed to be 105/105 from Yamaha, and they actually were. Checked at 1mm and also off peak to make sure. Hey diel I got a chart from a NASCAR engineer friend many years back I once knew that tells you mathematically what an engines INTAKE lob center should be set at based 2 engine design parameters. That being the engines stroke, and 1/2 of the length of the connecting rod. Doesn't work for exhaust. I don't have a scanner but beleive I can do a digital photo of the chart and can post that. Would be interesting to see how close it comes to your 09's specs. So if you know the stroke, can measure or guesstimate the length of the connecting rod and divide that by 2 should tell us.. FWIW I have been using 105 /105 on virtually every engine since my 1992 ZX7R Kawasaki superbike. If nothing else at least I am now subscribed to this thread.

That's what you're seeing....one advantage of not having many miles. dunno about anyone else, but i think it's interesting that the inner two cylinders have a smaller flame size and more triangular shape than the outer 2... simply fuelling differences? (either that or i'm seeing things)

Hell yeah post it up man. I will get that up later tonight. JJ

dunno about anyone else, but i think it's interesting that the inner two cylinders have a smaller flame size and more triangular shape than the outer 2... simply fuelling differences? (either that or i'm seeing things) Very observant! I can't say for sure but on all of the previous models the intake tracts are quite a bit different for the inner two as compared to the outer two. the outer two are kinda forced to swirl while the inner two are more of a straight shot. that may have some to do with it.

Well, the head has been shipped along with my left nut to Tim Radley. He seems to like payment at the same time as work arrives. Was going to stick a dog turd in one of the ports but refrained as I don't want to start an international gross out war. Plus just knowing him I can tell you he would win hands down. I don't know why you send it all the way to Tim, he just takes them down to the "jiffy port" on the corner & gets 'em done while he waits! :lol

Was going to stick a dog turd in one of the ports but refrained as I don't want to start an international gross out war. Plus just knowing him I can tell you he would win hands down. I'd send you back a photo of my mom in the bath again :) Rent day bitch.

doesn't leave a lot of room for thinner (YEC) gaskets. Nope. Sounds the same as the 08. Not much room for tightening them up. Luckily i can get the compression in other ways :)

Nope. Sounds the same as the 08. Not much room for tightening them up. Luckily i can get the compression in other ways :) Valves? Welded head? What would be the best way to do it?

nice....

I'd send you back a photo of my mom in the bath again :) Rent day bitch. "It's not so bad Munson"

Valves? Welded head? What would be the best way to do it? You don't think he is going to give away his trade secrets now do ya? OK lets start with grinding the valve guides flush with the port, then after that we,......., aaahhh never mind. I am as excitied as diel is to get his head back. JJ

Valves? Welded head? What would be the best way to do it? Ok, here goes i don't normally give out this level on info but you guys are super special. What i do it this .......... ........ fit spark plugs with an electrode the size of a plate. fills the chamber real well:finger

Hell yeah post it up man. Most of the Hondas also come with 105/105 +- .5 degrees. But usually they are off from the factory some. I had to triple check these as I couldn't believe they were spot on. OK I took some digital photos of it and that is the best I can do without a scanner. I am going to retype it in a Excel spreadsheet so PM me a email address and I can email it to you for future reference. I got this from a NASCAR engineer like 15 years ago. The column on the LEFT side is the engines "stroke" divided by 2. So if it was 50mm stroke, then you would use the # 25 in the left column. The column across the top is the length of the connecting rod. Ideally you would measure that from the center of the big end to the center of the small end, but you can guess-timate it by multiplying the stroke by 2. So in our example that would be 100. So those numbers would give you a 103 INTAKE lobe center. The end result is the theoretically correct INTAKE lobe center based on the engines stroke and length of connecting rod. There is no chart for the exhaust. Hope you can read it. JJ

While I was making Pix, here is one of my cool tools. I use this to measure the quench clearance that many refer to as "squish". It is a Deck Height Bridge and dial indicator. The dial indicator is acurrate to a 1/2 of a thousand and is the only one I have ever seen like that. Not neccesary to be accurate more than .001 but is the only indicator I have ever seen that does that. Diel knows this but for others that read this, this tool is used to measure how high the piston comes up in the bore at Top Dead Center. You place the bridge over the block, zero it out, and then rotate the crank. Ideally the outer 4 edges of the piston should never rise higher than the block. I actually prefer to see it about .005 inch from the top of the block. Thats POSITIVE deck height. You would add that # .005 to the thickness of the "compressed" head gasket and thats how much clearance you have from the pistons hitting the cylinder head which hangs over the bore. How much diel choses to set his piston to head clearance I dont think he has said. My rule of thumb is .040 inch for a 15,000 RPM motor and never less than .035 for any other motors. However there are plenty of engine builders that will tell you they run it tighter. I once had an engine with .030 piston to head clearance (0 deck height and a .030 thick head gasket) and it ran fine. The only thing keeping the pistons from hitting the cylinder head was the thickness of the head gaskets. But when I rebuilt it again I could see where the pistons were hitting the head. The Wiseco pistons have raised arrows on them pointing towards the exhaust and you could see where the arrows were hitting the cylinder head. That is about perfect. And of course when using this tool you need to rock the piston fore and aft at TDC to get a accurate measurement. Becuase the piston will rock at TDC on the exhaust stroke only and that is when it usually hits. JJ

suscribed loving this one cant wait to see how the head work turns out for u.:secret:

The poor mans way of measuring squish "quench clearance" is to put 4 strips of solder on top of the piston, bolt the head on with a used head gasket, rotate the engine by hand and the solder will "squish". Take head off and measure the amount the solder is squished is your piston to head clearance. I find this is pretty accurate most of the time. Mainly concerned with the clearance fore and aft as the piston will rock on the connecting rod fore and aft but not side to side. Most production engines come with more than enough squish (got those warranties to consider), so engine builders tighten this up and it increases compression. This is usually done by going to a thinner head gasket if available, or milling a few thousands off the top of the block. Thats easier to do if the block is not part of the crankcase. You can also use thinner base gaskets (under the block) if the engine has a removable block. I think HONDA went back to a removable block on the 08/09 1KRR. I have no idea about R1's. I recommend squish (piston to head clearance) be no tigher than .035", ever, but others will testify they run tighter with no issues. .035" is the # I use. Maybe diel can tell us what it was on his R1 both before and after reassembly. JJ

Maybe diel can tell us what it was on his R1 both before and after reassembly. JJ he already posted the before #@ .72mm so this motor's already tighter than you'd suggest.

I am no motor building pro, but i always shoot for .027-.030 P-H. Last motor i put together was at .024, but it has aftermarket rods in it. I use the solder method for figuring squish myself. I take four measurments per piston add them together and then divide by four to get my actual clearance. I built an 04 G1K motor that has the pistons above the deck. Only motor i have seen like that, and only like that because the people who bored the cylinders took allot off the deck. Still running to this day. 178hp 14 to 1 compression on pump gas.

I am no motor building pro, but i always shoot for .027-.030 P-H. Last motor i put together was at .024, but it has aftermarket rods in it. I use the solder method for figuring squish myself. I take four measurments per piston add them together and then divide by four to get my actual clearance. I built an 04 G1K motor that has the pistons above the deck. Only motor i have seen like that, and only like that because the people who bored the cylinders took allot off the deck. Still running to this day. 178hp 14 to 1 compression on pump gas. Makes you wonder about the 4 piece solder method though, for example if you measure 22,22,32,32 the average comes out to 27. Should you worry about the 22? If you had an engine with a bit looser piston to bore clearance (like the earlier R1's) would the pistons hit with that measurement...

My 03's at just over 28thou tightest pot. I intend to bring that down slightly at some point if it proves itself to be reliable. I don't think that 35 thou will do that much for a motor personally. Good thread diel11, thanks for starting it and good luck with it all :thumbup

All Hondas from 04 on have the piston to head clearance dictated by the head gasket only as the pistons are above the block. The 04-05 1000rr came with a .4mm head gasket and extra .2mm on the block which had a chamfer. So you would mill the .2mm, then install a .6-.7mm head gasket to give you that piston to head clearance. I check piston to head both ways but you have to be careful with either method. With the gauge, if you use it on motors that have separate cylinders, you then need to have spacers to torque the cylinders down without the head, like this 09 motor. With the solder, like Tim has mentioned before, if you use too thick of solder then it will throw off the measurements. I've set motors as tight as .6mm, average is .7mm for most applications. Very true. I usually use some copper tubing slid over the cylinder head bolts with some washers and tourqe the block down to the cases, then measure the deck height with the gauge. I have gotten away with .030" .75mm quench clearance and found that to be about perfect but personally thats as tight as I will have it. I just don't think the risk is worth any potential gain to go tighter on squish. But thats just my preference and what works for me may not for someone else. JJ

Several things:- I've run one modern bike engine that runs to 14krpm to 0.018" (0.45mm) squish without issue. Solder has some "spring" to it so you are prone to false measurements. Measuring deck height assumes the top of the piston is flat and perpendicular, which is not always true. I have run many motors tight and found lets say the right hand squish of 3 pistons just kissing then the left hand of the 4th also. wtf is that all about? I would not worry about the method, as long as you have worked out how tight you can go with your method and keep using it you will be fine. My minimum squish at my method might be 020 yours might be 025. Both might be kissing head. neither is wrong.

How about piston manufacturers and how they affect pth. My favorite is JE pistons. In a set of 4 you will have a full range of measurements, like way way off from one to the other. Yes in my experience the shelf piston kits have much looser compression height than stock. But i guess you get what you pay for most of the time. In the same way one of my ported cylinder heads costs twice as much as the competition but takes 6 times longer to do ......

Wait a minute...you said that to polish everything was going to take you 2 weeks. Is that a spit polish or what? What's so special about your heads? I've seen some people here do them in 1 day....hahahaha.

What's so special about your heads? Obviously i go beyond the regular polish job. What a stupid question. But as you've asked. I have the ports chromed. Chroming costs a lot. Proper shine mate. Wait until you get it back. I will send you some shades. Don't want you getting blinded.

As long as I can read the bible in the reflection we'll be ok.

How about piston manufacturers and how they affect pth. My favorite is JE pistons. In a set of 4 you will have a full range of measurements, like way way off from one to the other. At least you got a set to actually work. My last set of JE's made my CBR sound like a diesel. Theres one theoretical issue I have with solder. It does to the piston rod ass. the exact opposite of what is actually happening in the engine when its running. It compresses the assembly and its bearing clearances. Its obvious that when a piston and rod are going through TDC @ 25mps, it is stretched or extended at least during the exhaust / inlet TDC when there is no compression holding the piston down. During the comp / power TDC on the other hand you would have the assembly being compressed. I suppose the whole concept of pth is to compensate for this stretch but how much stretch is bearing clearance (which you can measure statically) and how much is rod and piston flex (which you can only really guess). Ripperton Design: thinking too much since 1972

all weirdos ^^^^^ just ride the bike :lol:lol:lol

JE dropins, at least for 04-06.. arent worth metal they are made of. BSR did extensive test with his, couldnt get them to make as much power as stock, then sold them to me, twice in with new rings, and still no gain compared to stockers. next for me is set of CP pistons. might cost more...but i think worth it. now ive put in 10 sets in busas with good luck. but few in R1 dont see to like them much at all. maybe 09 will be different. and i got nothing against JE...i like there stuff...just not pistons i have for my 04.

I have tried several J&E pistons, and had good running motors with them for sure, but I am no pro. Our last set of J&E's were a bit over $800 as i remember. N2O pistons for the 07 G1k using one compression ring. Big, heavy, and overbuilt.

At least you got a set to actually work. My last set of JE's made my CBR sound like a diesel. Theres one theoretical issue I have with solder. It does to the piston rod ass. the exact opposite of what is actually happening in the engine when its running. It compresses the assembly and its bearing clearances. Its obvious that when a piston and rod are going through TDC @ 25mps, it is stretched or extended at least during the exhaust / inlet TDC when there is no compression holding the piston down. During the comp / power TDC on the other hand you would have the assembly being compressed. I suppose the whole concept of pth is to compensate for this stretch but how much stretch is bearing clearance (which you can measure statically) and how much is rod and piston flex (which you can only really guess). Ripperton Design: thinking too much since 1972 Excellent point. I believe I touched on that a few posts back, but not as eloquently as you just did.

Tim Radley you are a super cool guy. You never talk down to anyone, never act better than anyone, even though you have obviously seen and experianced much more than the rest of us in these areas. Thank you for your additions to this site and others.

Excellent point. I believe I touched on that a few posts back, but not as eloquently as you just did. Thanks but isnt eloquent a gay thing ? you know like Elton John Oh god I hope Im not eloquent :lol But anyway a thickness reading you get from sqashed solder would straight away have to have your bearing clearance subtracted from it. Then calculate or estimate the amount of compression the piston and rod are experiencing due to being mechanically crashed into the head and also subtract that. Then whats left will be your actual pth clearance which will hopefully be only partially consumed by piston and rod flex. :crash

One other thing, I usually use very thin solder, then double it up by spinning it. It's not as stiff as one thicker piece and doesn't spring back as bad either. A high compression motor will put a lot more pressure on a piston and bearing clearances than a spun piece of solder, by a lot. I've always tried to use solder that was not too much larger than what I'm trying to measure but I hadn't considered twisting. thanks for the tip!

well that puts things into perspective I guess Thanks Diel Im probly looking at things through too fine a microscope, comes from being mad :ncont: Back to the bike Got your BST's yet ?

diel11 (http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/member.php?u=87734), who are you? I mean, I was under the impression that you are an engine builder for a race team or something but now I'm thinking you're just a speed junkie like some of the rest of us. :dunno So, who are you?

scribed

diel11 (http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/member.php?u=87734), who are you? I mean, I was under the impression that you are an engine builder for a race team or something but now I'm thinking you're just a speed junkie like some of the rest of us. :dunno So, who are you? He's too modest to answer this himself so I will. Diel is to race bike tuning and engine building what Chuck Norris is to hardass Ninja mutha fukkaz :flex:

He's too modest to answer this himself so I will. Diel is to race bike tuning and engine building what Chuck Norris is to hardass Ninja mutha fukkaz :flex: :lol:lol:lol Can anyone let me know what stock squish is on the 07/08 models please? I've forgotten but I'm sure it's not as tight as the 28thou Diel11's measured on his 09...

who are you? I mean, I was under the impression that you are an engine builder for a race team or something but now I'm thinking you're just a speed junkie like some of the rest of us. :dunno So, who are you? He is Erv Kanemoto really. But i didn't tell you that ......

Tim Radley you are a super cool guy. You never talk down to anyone, never act better than anyone, even though you have obviously seen and experianced much more than the rest of us in these areas. Thank you for your additions to this site and others. Thanks, you are welcome.

He is Erv Kanemoto really. But i didn't tell you that ...... I reckon he's Merlyn Plumlee back from the other side, he's always talking about Hondas... :secret: :lol

Thanks but isnt eloquent a gay thing ? you know like Elton John Oh god I hope Im not eloquent :lol No gay sentiments intended. You just did a better job of explaining it than I did. I run as fast and as far as I can from Gay stuff. :crash

I am Tim Radley's gimp. Aren't we all speed junkies?

I am Tim Radley's gimp. Aren't we all speed junkies? well most of us.................except for............maybe marcaztls? :scoots:

well most of us.................except for............maybe marcaztls? :scoots: Yep, I like to see it going really fast on the dyno, makes me go weeeeeeeeeee! But NOT with me on it. No Sir, not me :fact Scared crapless by anything over 6k and 2nd gear.

I am Tim Radley's gimp. Zed: Bring out the Gimp. Maynard: Gimp's sleeping. Zed: Well, I guess you're gonna have to go wake him up now, won't you?

More awesome info. Thanks to those contributing :thumbup

Zed: Bring out the Gimp. Maynard: Gimp's sleeping. Zed: Well, I guess you're gonna have to go wake him up now, won't you? :ugh You just took this thread to a whole new level

We are all such nerds! I look forward to reading this thread, Headwork, and the oil section every time I log in. Thanks for some great info, guys!

Awesome Pics, look forward to seeing more!

I can say I like the new look in those pistons. The 07-08's have a way too sharp edges on the domes. lookin at diels pistons, they all look really rounded w/ no sharp edges at all. Thats a good thing. Also, I cant really tell, but it looks as if it was zero decked already?? The solder trick is cool. I used to do this setting up rear ends w/ shims. Got real tired pulling bearings on and off, til I figured out theres a better way. And no failers. Waiting to see how this will conclude and cant wait to see the dyno results.

Just awsome pics! Just wondering on the results of the head work..... nothing like tearing into a new bike lol.

Update: I am already working on Diel's head. Drop-in billet race cams to run on his stock springs should be with me next week. Hoping to get the port work done by then so he could have it back within 2 weeks. The head is better than i was expecting. Only one dog leg port, not 2 like the 08 engine. Much room for improvement all over.

Did you just say you're only gonna put one dog egg in a port?! I know you two have a 'special' relationship but I don't think US customs will be too impressed... :lol Joking aside, that's nice to hear. Just like Suzi did with the Gixxers it looks like Yam are stepping their game up and really putting some thought and effort into design and production quality from the little I've heard so far. Diel's measurements were interesting so far ;)

If he puts an egg in the port it would be the first time he has kept parcels between us "PG rated". Usually it's some of his dirty pink underwear with Nascar racing stripes. Had to use paint remover with vinegar and drano all mixed together to remove the stench last time.

Sure is built heavy duty this new engine. Not like the older R1's. Top quality castings too - typical recent Yamaha.

While I was making Pix, here is one of my cool tools. I use this to measure the quench clearance that many refer to as "squish". It is a Deck Height Bridge and dial indicator. The dial indicator is acurrate to a 1/2 of a thousand and is the only one I have ever seen like that. Not neccesary to be accurate more than .001 but is the only indicator I have ever seen that does that. Diel knows this but for others that read this, this tool is used to measure how high the piston comes up in the bore at Top Dead Center. You place the bridge over the block, zero it out, and then rotate the crank. Ideally the outer 4 edges of the piston should never rise higher than the block. I actually prefer to see it about .005 inch from the top of the block. Thats POSITIVE deck height. You would add that # .005 to the thickness of the "compressed" head gasket and thats how much clearance you have from the pistons hitting the cylinder head which hangs over the bore. How much diel choses to set his piston to head clearance I dont think he has said. My rule of thumb is .040 inch for a 15,000 RPM motor and never less than .035 for any other motors. However there are plenty of engine builders that will tell you they run it tighter. I once had an engine with .030 piston to head clearance (0 deck height and a .030 thick head gasket) and it ran fine. The only thing keeping the pistons from hitting the cylinder head was the thickness of the head gaskets. But when I rebuilt it again I could see where the pistons were hitting the head. The Wiseco pistons have raised arrows on them pointing towards the exhaust and you could see where the arrows were hitting the cylinder head. That is about perfect. And of course when using this tool you need to rock the piston fore and aft at TDC to get a accurate measurement. Becuase the piston will rock at TDC on the exhaust stroke only and that is when it usually hits. JJ lol . i just discovered this method of measuring squish here: http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182384&page=448 :lol where will the piston rock on the exhaust stroke? (closer or further from the head, and why...:) ) and btw ,i have a dial gauge with 0.00005 inch accuracy :drunk:

diel , did u took pics of the combustion chamber?

Took pics but can't find them at the moment. Will check camera.

where will the piston rock on the exhaust stroke? (closer or further from the head, and why...:) ) and btw ,i have a dial gauge with 0.00005 inch accuracy :drunk: The piston comes closer to the head on the exhaust stroke. The reason is on the compression stroke the piston is having to deal with resistance to upwards motion, the compression. There is no resistance like that on the exhaust stroke. Pistons rock front to back on the wrist pin. Enough to warrant checking. The accuracy of my dial gauge was refering to an analog version, not your digital. I have not seen a dial indicator gauge with a "dial" that has greater accuracy than .0005. JJ

Photo or 08 and 09 R1 combustion chambers

Thanks Tim.

tanx!

09 clearly looks to be much smoother if thats the word even. Just looks cleaner and more rounded. any idea what the cc difference between them is Tim? And whats with the dimple near the spark plug hole on both?

Worst ? I thought, at least with the 5 valve Yammies, that R1 heads were tough to stamp out at a quick pace due to being complex.

And whats with the dimple near the spark plug hole on both? I always though that was there to give a handy place to grind down when balancing the combustion chambers.

worst would be the 5 valve heads...lol great part throttle performance!! But not a great design.

Talking 4 valve heads. The suzuki and kawasaki chambers are much better.

Talking 4 valve heads. The suzuki and kawasaki chambers are much better. I haven't seen them, what's better about them? more centralized? more squish area?

You can get quite a performance gain from improving the combustion event and this requires reshaping the chamber. It goes a little further than "port and polish" but that hateful expression is not my bag anyway baby. Attached are a couple of examples of non-R1 chambers. You should be able to see where are why from those.

Oooo ya bugger... When you move your arms Tim, does it go 'bzzzzt, bzzzzzzzzt, bzzzt'?! :lol

imho 08 chamber looks better then 09. looks like they reduced the c/r on the 09 engine . also , i always wondered why do they leave the extra space on both sides of the combustion chamber , between the intake and the exhaust valves? i saw on some old race engines ,the pistons aint flat on the top , and they got extra matterial that goes exactly in those 2 points i'm talking about... so is this done on purpose?

Tim you do some really clean work my friend. Great pics. thanks.

You can get quite a performance gain from improving the combustion event and this requires reshaping the chamber. It goes a little further than "port and polish" but that hateful expression is not my bag anyway baby. Attached are a couple of examples of non-R1 chambers. You should be able to see where are why from those. thanks for the comparison pics Tim. looks to me like they've been unshrouded & polished. when I've done that I lost quite a bit of compression. I'm assuming that you made up for the loss in other ways?

thanks for the comparison pics Tim. looks to me like they've been unshrouded & polished. when I've done that I lost quite a bit of compression. I'm assuming that you made up for the loss in other ways? Look again. They have had the seat inserts cut out, the entire chambers tig welded up then reshaped then new seats put in and cut. Hence the raised sloping sides, built up areas between valves, no squish recess on the one head anymore on intake and exhaust side and also side squish bands now too. We are talking 30 hours of chamber and seat work on the one head i've shown there and that is before i've touched the ports!!

Looks like some mumbo jumbo to me...hahaha.

Look again. They have had the seat inserts cut out, the entire chambers tig welded up then reshaped then new seats put in and cut. Hence the raised sloping sides, built up areas between valves, no squish recess on the one head anymore on intake and exhaust side and also side squish bands now too. We are talking 30 hours of chamber and seat work on the one head i've shown there and that is before i've touched the ports!! thanks for walking me through it. I guess I'm not too observant.............well...........& bigger pics couldn't hurt! :sing: Thank You!

thats an amazing job on the combustion chamber tim . i bet the c/r is sky high on those . looks like u should worry about valve to valve clearance on the lower chamber .

Yes sorry pictures were a bit low res, didn't mean to sound rude. Posted in a hurry this morning. It lets you get CR in there without skimming which helps PTV too. You still excited Diel? I'm only going to polish your ports though :) haha

Very much so. I like shiny things.

Tim / Diel What was stock CR on the 09R1 and what CR can you get by welding chambers, milling head and leaving stock pistons in.

OI...Hallo.....anyone home Whats up America, youve gone all quiet. What happen ?, youre beloved Government ban crossplane crankshafts too. :crash

OI...Hallo.....anyone home Whats up America, youve gone all quiet. What happen ?, youre beloved Government ban crossplane crankshafts too. :crash well, it's the middle of the night here (when you posted) so it's a little quiet. kinda sounds like an anti American statement there? that's not well tolerated around here these days.

well, it's the middle of the night here (when you posted) so it's a little quiet. kinda sounds like an anti American statement there? that's not well tolerated around here these days. +1 :dunno

not anti american, it's anti goverment. By far we clearly have the most ****ed up and greedy goverment on earth. And to help them we happen to be the most ignorant people on earth.

not anti american, it's anti goverment. By far we clearly have the most ****ed up and greedy goverment on earth. And to help them we happen to be the most ignorant people on earth. I love Americans, whats not to like, they are just like Australians. Sorry maybe my wit is a little sharp for some But yes I am staunchly Anti American Government like a lot of people down here. Excuse me for having the cerebral dexterity to differentiate between People and Government. Jay, Its one clear thinking man like you that makes up for 10 ignoramus's.

I love Americans, whats not to like, they are just like Australians. Sorry maybe my wit is a little sharp for some But yes I am staunchly Anti American Government like a lot of people down here. Excuse me for having the cerebral dexterity to differentiate between People and Government. Jay, Its one clear thinking man like you that makes up for 10 ignoramus's. I'm english and live in england. We are poor and have ****ed up teeth. But despite the huge poverty i did manage to go out for some beers and food last night and ignore the internet for almost 24 hours. Will let you know CR figures in the next couple of days when i'm back at work and have the time. Its 9:24pm here right now just for reference.

not anti american, it's anti goverment. By far we clearly have the most ****ed up and greedy goverment on earth. And to help them we happen to be the most ignorant people on earth. I'll agree with that!

:corn

We are poor and have ****ed up teeth. I just had all my amalgam fillings replaced with ceramic composite fillings. Super light weight and shiny white. AND doesnt make me stupid. :crash

12.63:1

12.63:1 Nice, so you should be able to get 14:1 without having to feck around with JE's.

Easy.

So you're killing 2 birds with one stone. You're reshaping the chamber for better squish and raising CR. Does reshaping alone increase power / efficiency ? Another Q, is the cross plane crank patented ?

Diel 11 You said that Arata is coming out with a system for the 09 yamaha r1. I would like to know if you know if Sato will Be coming out With a full system for the 09 as well.:secret:

No telling about Sato. There's another really good company out there called Nojima but not sure if they are doing anything either.

Just for comparison, this is a pic of the 09 R1 cam chain vs. a HRC one out of a 07 1000rr. The HRC one is supposed to be stronger than their stock one. So when people talk about the weight of the new bike, this is the kind of stuff that makes the difference. This whole motor is just a tank, everything has been beefed up to take the crossplane uneven firing order and the high revs also. Just in case, the bigger one is the 09 R1 chain. The links themselves are also thicker. Better to be a little big and have no failures and cut weight somewhere else.:secret:

Bloody hell... Out of pure curiousity diel, have you got a pic of one of the plugs? Pete Beale mentioned them being a very long thread :confused: What number are they as standard? My NGK book (2009) doesn't have a listing for the 09 R1 yet...

Plugs are LMAR9E-J. This is a comparo between the stock 09 R1 and the NGK racing plug. Right, thanks very much for the mega-quick reply diel ;) Nice to see actually and to know that they're not ridiculously expensive. Not desperately cheap either but hey-ho, could be worse, could be same price as the SD plug on the left :lol

that bike needs the heavy chain because of the higher pressure on the chain ,caused by the eneven firing order. as u know , on a normal firing order one cylinder valves closing help the other's cylinder valves to open , this is not happening on the 09R1 , at least not like in normal inline 4. yamaha solved that problem long ago on their gp bike , with pneomatic valves.

Plugs are LMAR9E-J. This is a comparo between the stock 09 R1 and the NGK racing plug. I guess since you're in possession of one for pics that you may have used the NGK racing plugs? what are your thoughts on them? do they make a difference at all? does the "no heat range" give a tuning advantage? in general, what makes them cost so damn much?

in general, what makes them cost so damn much? hand made.

Used them on my 1000rr. They work a bit better for high compression engines of course (14.5-14.7:1). Biggest problem is how easy the foul up.

I wouldn't waste the money just use stock. Hey Diel, how come you haven't posted those photos of the 09 R1 head all stripped yet?

I thought you were going to post them.

Plugs are LMAR9E-J. This is a comparo between the stock 09 R1 and the NGK racing plug. Plug on the right looks like A CR9-EK with the dual electrodes. That plug was originally developed by NGK and first deployed in the 1993 Suzuki GSXR750 just for that particular bike. I was using them in 1994 in my FORMULA USA Kawasaki ZX7/9 race bike because I was running a 50 HP Nitorus shot down the back straight away at Road Atlanta and the stock C9E's wouldn't hold up. Those plugs In My Humble Opinion are old technology compared to the Iridium plugs. But as long as they sparkle I guess. A lot of bikes later started using those CR9 or CR10EK's. Personally I don't like them as they have resistors in them. JJ

Plug on the right looks like A CR9-EK with the dual electrodes. That plug was originally developed by NGK and first deployed in the 1993 Suzuki GSXR750 just for that particular bike. I was using them in 1994 in my FORMULA USA Kawasaki ZX7/9 race bike because I was running a 50 HP Nitorus shot down the back straight away at Road Atlanta and the stock C9E's wouldn't hold up. Those plugs In My Humble Opinion are old technology compared to the Iridium plugs. But as long as they sparkle I guess. A lot of bikes later started using those CR9 or CR10EK's. Personally I don't like them as they have resistors in them. JJ :confused:which ones don't you like? you mentioned 3 different plugs!:dundun:

:confused:which ones don't you like? you mentioned 3 different plugs!:dundun: CR9EK's and CR10EK's are the same plug except the 10 is 1 heat range colder. In the pix it is the dual electrode plug that no way in hell it fires to both electrodes at the same time. C9E's were single electrode and the ground strap melted pretty fast in my race motors with or without nitrous. I didnt like that the CR9EK's came in resistor form only and in the days before stick coils, you already had 5000 Ohm resistors built into the plugs caps so that was extra resistance not really needed. In the final analysis I used the CR10EK's as they were the best solution for my nitrous shot motors. I am shocked to see they come stock in the new 09 R1 cross plane motor to be honest assuming I read that correct. 16 year old plug originally designed for a Gixxer 750 soldiers on I guess.

CR9EK's and CR10EK's are the same plug except the 10 is 1 heat range colder. In the pix it is the dual electrode plug that no way in hell it fires to both electrodes at the same time. C9E's were single electrode and the ground strap melted pretty fast in my race motors with or without nitrous. I didnt like that the CR9EK's came in resistor form only and in the days before stick coils, you already had 5000 Ohm resistors built into the plugs caps so that was extra resistance not really needed. In the final analysis I used the CR10EK's as they were the best solution for my nitrous shot motors. I am shocked to see they come stock in the new 09 R1 cross plane motor to be honest assuming I read that correct. 16 year old plug originally designed for a Gixxer 750 soldiers on I guess. if you melted plugs in your engine it's because you have a fuel problem. nitrous or not:fact assuming the heat range is close. i ran a 150 horsepower shot on my car for years and only hurt plugs when the egt probes showed excessive heat due to improper a/f .

if you melted plugs in your engine it's because you have a fuel problem. nitrous or not:fact assuming the heat range is close. i ran a 150 horsepower shot on my car for years and only hurt plugs when the egt probes showed excessive heat due to improper a/f . More like to much ignition advance. I was running about 38-40' total ignition lead. Later when I got a Dyna 2000 ignition I could run less advance when only using the nitrous. 38-40 degress until nitrous activation then it auto retarded to 28 degress until the nitrous button was released. Was end of problems.

More like to much ignition advance. I was running about 38-40' total ignition lead. Later when I got a Dyna 2000 ignition I could run less advance when only using the nitrous. 38-40 degress until nitrous activation then it auto retarded to 28 degress until the nitrous button was released. Was end of problems. well i assumed you would have done that already.:dundun: and yeah i agree, i used to use 36 degrees total on my car naturally aspirated, and 28-30 on the bottle. :thumbup

on the bottle. :thumbup :drunk:

This is what Tim has removed from the exhaust ports. I forgot to pull the bag of weed out of there before sending the head.... are you getting the chambers reworked like Tim posted in some of the photos? P.S. it's no wonder that Tim's not done with it yet!:bandit

Damn, didn't take Diel long to post that. Only just sent him the picture!! Exhaust ports are about 80% done but have taken me over 10 hours so far. Bearing in mind i can do a complete regular port and polish job in maybe 3 hours not including valve job. Not even looked at inlet ports yet but have done some prep work on the chambers. Might go home watch the superbike races in a minute though. Been on it 8 hours today already.

You better get back to grinding bitch!! Seriously, go home and enjoy the races. BSR - this is all I've gotten and if you look carefully under the bag you can see some type of weld bead. Tim is keeping this pretty hush hush and I completely understand why.

At first glance I thought that was a picture of a messed up head poking out from under that bag until I looked a little closer... I have no shame in admiting I'd be 'altered' downstairs in more than one way if that was my head right now diel :sing Can't wait for this to unfold...

I'm going to get some more alcohol in a bit. Maybe then i'll send Diel some better pictures. I tell you what really confuses me. How the manufacturers can get one area real good and another so frickin awful. Like say for example that maybe suzuki might have the best chamber, honda the best exhaust port, yamaha the best inlet port but none of them can get the whole lot right. Year after year they make the same unbalanced screw ups. Then compare the r1 to r6. The r6 has a great combustion chamber the r1 is dog shit. Like wtf is that all about???

they are trying to keep you in business Tim...lol

Confuses the hell out of me. Take the r6. I could redesign the head and cams for them to add another 25bhp. I mean my porting on that will add 10bhp on its own. Then i have give a better intake design to add 7bhp peak, 12 mid. So why would they not want to do this? All they have to do is beef up the rods and the r6 in 2010 could be quicker than most 1000's and all 750's. Its not like they don't have access to all the engine guru's that make the race engines what they are. Imagine how crazy it would be if the 2010 r6 was like that, it would be crazy. I hear people say many times its so they can improve next years model but it would still improve. But if you added 20bhp for next year then your bike would be lightyears ahead of the rest for many years to come. Just really don't get it. Maybe they got kids with etcha sketches doing the design work these days.

Confuses the hell out of me. Take the r6. I could redesign the head and cams for them to add another 25bhp. I mean my porting on that will add 10bhp on its own. Then i have give a better intake design to add 7bhp peak, 12 mid. So why would they not want to do this? All they have to do is beef up the rods and the r6 in 2010 could be quicker than most 1000's and all 750's. Its not like they don't have access to all the engine guru's that make the race engines what they are. Imagine how crazy it would be if the 2010 r6 was like that, it would be crazy. I hear people say many times its so they can improve next years model but it would still improve. But if you added 20bhp for next year then your bike would be lightyears ahead of the rest for many years to come. Just really don't get it. Maybe they got kids with etcha sketches doing the design work these days. I've often wonder about this myself. it wouldn't even cost them any more than the typical redesign that they do every other year anyway! imagine how many bikes you could sell before the others caught up!

why did Honda not hire Tony Scott, their RC30 heads were hiding HP everywhere and he found it is a garage i thinkx how much can you find in my R1 heads mate?

This is what Tim has removed from the exhaust ports. I forgot to pull the bag of weed out of there before sending the head.... that is funny, bag of wheed

I wonder if different teams work on intake/exhaust/combustion chamber? and **** when are they going to get their shit together and get rid of the modern valve already!!!! IT IS A POS!!!! The MOST LIMITING FACTOR IN MODERN ENGINES!!! we need balls with holes in them controlled by air driven solonoids.

tim , when u say better chamber , what do u mean? do u mean its making better compression or better flame distribution or both?

I wonder if different teams work on intake/exhaust/combustion chamber? and **** when are they going to get their shit together and get rid of the modern valve already!!!! IT IS A POS!!!! The MOST LIMITING FACTOR IN MODERN ENGINES!!! we need balls with holes in them controlled by air driven solonoids. jay , did u see bmw's valve system on their superbike? pretty interesting i think.

have not seen it. there is an aftermarket company that makes a ball valve setup. I cannot remember the name. You get ball valves to seal correctly, and have them controlled by solonoids then you have constitantly variable valve timing, your rpm limits will no longer be valve float but rather just pure metal strength, I think you will be able to use smaller ports to make the same power, as there is not a valve in the way of the air flow even when the valve is open. I just think the modern valve is a pile of crap thats easy to produce, and does not work that amazingly well...lol It's not very aerodynamic. 400mph air trying to get past it and all. there has to be a better way.

I have been away for a few days, where we at? Got to the 5 Angle valve job yet??? I have heard of people doing 5 angle valve jobs for decades. I just can't figure out how they do it. I could never get past 4 Angles. The stock valve seat has a 30 degree lead in, a 45 (seat), and a 60. I almost never removed metal from the 45 seat or that sinks the valve into the head, less compression and harder to adjust shims. Reduces shim selection for sure. So what I did was narrow the 45 to 1MM wide by trimming the top and bottom of the 45 with the 30 and 60 degree cutters. Followed that with a fourth angle, a 75 degree and that opened up the 60 into the port. I could never find room above the 30 to put a 15. Just didn't seem practical. I cut all my valve seats by hand 1 angle at a time using the best cutters made. NEWAY. I trimed the seat 45 to 1MM to improve flow past it, but never less than 1MM as it needs enough metal to transfer heat and be able to resist the pounding of the valve. I don't know about this 5 angle stuff. I doubt even an automated cutter can get around the fact the 45 cannot be touched much, except for trimming the width above or below. I also put a ditch cut on the back side of the INTAKE valve, to un-shroud it. NEWAY made a great tool for that. Sadly enough, I have retired from building engines and sold all my NEWAY stuff to a shop in California. I had done close to a 100 seats and the tools still looked like new. That was a happy eBayer buyer. JJ

why did Honda not hire Tony Scott, their RC30 heads were hiding HP everywhere and he found it is a garage i thinkx how much can you find in my R1 heads mate? I read that article in one of those British rags a while back. As I recall, the HRC head guy went to Tony's house to see what Tony was doing to so improve on their great engine design. And Tony's shop? What an "out house" looking shack in his backyard. Unreal, the HRC guru going into Tonys dumpy shack to learn his secrets. Not knocking Tony at all, I am just pointing out his shop is nothing like what you would expect. So I guess you cant judge a shop by how it looks, because his looked like a dump, barely bigger than a porta John. Gesus that guy could build some engines. JJ

KLW - Saved this from the other headwork thread - dont know if this helps ? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/TL1000R/R1/motor/Valvejobs.jpg

here's some diagrams of seats & some info. I'm sure most of you already know this but I thought I'd post it up for the benefit of the rest of us.

Not knocking Tony at all, I am just pointing out his shop is nothing like what you would expect. So I guess you cant judge a shop by how it looks, because his looked like a dump, barely bigger than a porta John. Same thing here and i know 2 other top builders who are the same. But you'd cry if you knew some of the teams and shops that have heads from us. A fancy front end does not guarantee the best performance - a bit like seeing 38DD tits and great looks then pulling the panties down and seeing mr wang hanging down ..... On valve seats, there are huge gains to be had but it really is very tough and tightly guarded information. And a valve job is only as good as the operator.

KLW - Saved this from the other headwork thread - dont know if this helps ? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/TL1000R/R1/motor/Valvejobs.jpg Yeah, my point is the 30' is already so narrow, there is not enough room to add the 15 above it. Therefore I don't bother with the 15. So all my valve jobs were 4 angles, not 5. I also tried (with good results) changing the 45 seat to a 46 degree seat. That made the 45 cut on the valve face an interference fit to the 46' on the seat. NEWAY actually makes 46' degree seat cutters. So basically the seat has 3 angles from the factory. I added the 75' cut for a 4 angle valve job. JJ

Yeah, my point is the 30' is already so narrow, there is not enough room to add the 15 above it. Therefore I don't bother with the 15. So all my valve jobs were 4 angles, not 5. I also tried (with good results) changing the 45 seat to a 46 degree seat. That made the 45 cut on the valve face an interference fit to the 46' on the seat. NEWAY actually makes 46' degree seat cutters. So basically the seat has 3 angles from the factory. I added the 75' cut for a 4 angle valve job. JJ You want a wider 30 really. If you must have a 15 it means new seat inserts and welding the chamber up to match it. Lot of work. PITA to do. Don't run a 46 on titanium valves. Its a sharp edge and will eat them fast. If you want more flow go to 55 degree. I would avoid neway cutters. Bought some once. If you check with a valve seal tester it will show the flaws. Concentricity is very poor. Even worse if you cut the guides at an angle. Adding 75 under the 60 will pick up peak flow and lower the mid and upper mid flow on flowbench.

You want a wider 30 really. If you must have a 15 it means new seat inserts and welding the chamber up to match it. Lot of work. PITA to do. Don't run a 46 on titanium valves. Its a sharp edge and will eat them fast. If you want more flow go to 55 degree. I would avoid neway cutters. Bought some once. If you check with a valve seal tester it will show the flaws. Concentricity is very poor. Even worse if you cut the guides at an angle. Adding 75 under the 60 will pick up peak flow and lower the mid and upper mid flow on flowbench. Thats my point from the beginning, that 5 angle valve jobs are bogus on stock seats. The 30 degree terminates at the edge of the chamber. There is no where to put it on stock seats. So people who think the local shop done them a 5 angle job BSed em. Avoid NEWAY? You must be smoking some of that weed you posted pix of. I've used NEWAY for 20+ years after seeing them first used in Ernie Elliots NASCAR engine shop. They are the very best cutters made. Poor Concentricity? Laughing My Ass Off, I always checked them using a Central tools concentricity gauge, followed up by machinists dye and they were always perfect. We will just have to agree to disagree on NEWAY. JJ

Have you looked or used Newen?

I have used this NEWAY product for 20+ years and am now told it is to be avoided, that its concentricity is bad? Thats laughable. I probably done close to a 100 cylinder heads using NEWAY. I also prefer the 46 cut even with TI valves as the valve is much harder than the seat anyway. Never had a problem with durability. Attached is a pix of NEWAY equipment for the curios who are wondering what the hell we are talking about.

Attached is a pix of NEWAY equipment for the curios who are wondering what the hell we are talking about. :thumbup

Have you looked or used Newen? Thats an expensive machine. Neway cutters are done by hand. A Newen Machine isnt going to be found in to many home garages. But I would bet the bank I could cut seats by hand as good if not better than a machine. However the entire point of my posts was to see when the 5 angle valve job would surface knowing those are pretty much bogus.

- a bit like seeing 38DD tits and great looks then pulling the panties down and seeing mr wang hanging down ..... DUDE! Please tell me you're not speaking from personal experience!

DUDE! Please tell me you're not speaking from personal experience! haven't you seen pics of Tim? :secret:

Thats an expensive machine. Neway cutters are done by hand. A Newen Machine isnt going to be found in to many home garages. But I would bet the bank I could cut seats by hand as good if not better than a machine. However the entire point of my posts was to see when the 5 angle valve job would surface knowing those are pretty much bogus. Cool man.

Avoid NEWAY? You must be smoking some of that weed you posted pix of. How old are you??????? You can believe what you like but you won't find any pro shop worth a shout using those. For the home guy its about the only option due to pricing. And as i said a few posts back the valve job is only as good as the operator. But with neway you are not locking the pilot in the plain of the guide. Its ok for trimming the other angles but i'd never touch a 45 with it. Been there, bought the kit, threw it in the store room and invested in better equipment. I guess it comes down to what standards one prefers to work to ....... You can cut as good as a serdi/mira/newen/rottler etc by hand? :drunk: Titanium valves are harder than the seat? That's why when people lap oem titanium valves and go through the hardening, they last 10 mins, flatten 60 thou of material in the process and the valve seat is unmarked. That's also why i have to change yamaha r6 ones every 20 hours on the supersport bikes, again the seats are mint and valves pooped at that. This debate is :flush:

DUDE! Please tell me you're not speaking from personal experience! I have never ever in my life been to Thailand and wound up drunk with a stunning looking lady boy. If you spread these rumours i will hunt you down like the dog i am :lol

I have used this NEWAY product for 20+ years thats the problem mate, technology is far more advanced now.

I have never ever in my life been to Thailand and wound up drunk with a stunning looking lady boy. If you spread these rumours i will hunt you down like the dog i am :lol You Englishmen have got serious problems! :lol

You Englishmen have got serious problems! :lol Diel is going to have serious problems - with underwear stains, spinning rear wheel and speech therapy. Just got off the flowbench with his head. 95% there now. Best r1 head i've done to date.

Diel is going to have serious problems - with underwear stains, spinning rear wheel and speech therapy. Just got off the flowbench with his head. 95% there now. Best r1 head i've done to date. Nice :cool:

Diel is going to have serious problems - with underwear stains, spinning rear wheel and speech therapy. Just got off the flowbench with his head. 95% there now. Best r1 head i've done to date. Better than having problems with Thai lady boys....

Tim, Hopefully my head could be as good or if even better than Deil's...:thumbup:rock Stan Diel is going to have serious problems - with underwear stains, spinning rear wheel and speech therapy. Just got off the flowbench with his head. 95% there now. Best r1 head i've done to date.

Better than having problems with Thai lady boys....the problem is is that tim doesnt think thats a problem.

Sounds like you got something against Thai's here. Racist pigs the lot of you :) Should be Stan ;)

Sounds like you got something against Thai's here. Racist pigs the lot of you :) Should be Stan ;)when are you going to get your permit to ride on the back of a bike? you said you were going to get it last year but never did. whats up with that?

Tim who do you think makes the best valve seat cutting machine? How does a Serdi compare to it? Do you ever cut the actual valve? Or are all the late valves coated and thats a no-no? I hand lapped all my valves, but it was because of the money involved in getting them cut, not because i thought it was best. Any problems with running N2O with Ti valves? I have heard people say that it is a bad idea but never understood why? You use a flow bench, how do you know when you have a good port shape? I assume it's not based on all out flow numbers? How do you know when you reach the best possible flow/port velocity compromise? so many questions!!!! Damn it man i thought it was simple!! Suck!Squeez!Bang!Blow!

Tim who do you think makes the best valve seat cutting machine? How does a Serdi compare to it? Do you ever cut the actual valve? Or are all the late valves coated and thats a no-no? I hand lapped all my valves, but it was because of the money involved in getting them cut, not because i thought it was best. Any problems with running N2O with Ti valves? I have heard people say that it is a bad idea but never understood why? You use a flow bench, how do you know when you have a good port shape? I assume it's not based on all out flow numbers? How do you know when you reach the best possible flow/port velocity compromise? so many questions!!!! Damn it man i thought it was simple!! Suck!Squeez!Bang!Blow! I would say the Newen Contour is the best. My friend has one. Its costs a lot of money but it really is something special. KWS in the states now have one as well and i seem to remember Chip saying they don't use the Serdi much anymore. But the Newen does a lot more than all those others because its a single point cutter cnc machine so it can do the bowls for you as well and you are not restricted on valve angles by the cutters you have. The Serdi are very good. You can cut seats really quick with these and no programming required. Good workhorse machine. Some valves you can reface. Also i will sometimes grind a back angle above the 45 face. Depends on the valve. Don't know about N2O. Don't do drag stuff only Superbike type applications. Can't explain on the port shapes without giving too much away. But i don't pay huge attention to flow numbers. I have a done huge amounts of testing and have lots of experience. Also i have calculations that i use and also engine modelling software. So there is a lot to it.

thanks man :) Thats kind of what I figured. I just know that flow bench numbers can mislead people allot of timess. I mean you can hog the hell out of the port and it have great flow bench numbers, but run like utter shit in the real world...lol I had a friend with an 07 G1K head that had actually broken a piece of the combustion chamber off. The small piece between the exhaust valves. We were running n2O on the bike (60shot) and did not have everything correct and it caused the broken piece. Well we sent it to a big name shop (who I have used in the past with good results) and they have a Serdi machaine and pics on their web site of a before and after damaged combustion chamber and of course it's flawless. Well we send the head in, and when we get it back the weld is sticking out into the sparkplug hole...lol I had to dremel it away and then chase the hole with a tap. I was a little suprised someone would miss something so obvious. Plus the chambers were not cc'ed , which I was suprised by. and just for information's sake, if you run a decent shot of N2O on a late model g1K, aftermarket head bolts are required. We had the strangest wear on the cylinder head and I could not figure out what had caused it. But the cylinder head fixer explained to me that the stock head bolts were streaching and letting the head move about on the case. Crazy you can have that much pressure.

thanks man :) Thats kind of what I figured. I just know that flow bench numbers can mislead people allot of timess. I mean you can hog the hell out of the port and it have great flow bench numbers, but run like utter shit in the real world...lol The problem with flowbench numbers is they are like dyno numbers. If the flowbench is calibrated poorly or they just plain leave the spark plug out (and some do!!) they can get big numbers. Now we all know that biggest is best and all that ..... so many get misled. Its another area that can be full of lies. And yes bigger flow numbers do not always mean more power although sometimes they do. I can reduce flow and gain lots of power in some situations but then sometimes the opposite is true. The air speeds must be correct as well. Change the intake stacks and gain 10bhp. Now your previously optimised port might be too small. Or maybe the 10bhp was because it was too big before but is now better suited to the optimised intake length. In simple terms, the port has a valve stuck at the end of it so in certain cases removing port material is not going to help because you still have to get around the valve. The 'port' flow to 'port with valve' flow ratio must be right. Knowing what is right and wrong is the hard part.

You forgot to tell him about the voodoo dolls of each port you make, and about sacrificing the chicken and smoking a cigar with a goat. Gives you good yuyu!!

You forgot to tell him about the voodoo dolls of each port you make, and about sacrificing the chicken and smoking a cigar with a goat. Gives you good yuyu!! No no no man, you got it all wrong. I shove the cigar in the ports, strip the doll and choke my chicken.

Well, I am done after that reply....how do I come up with a reply after having that mental picture in my head?

Tim you are a hugely smart guy for sure. I know some people could care less, but to me this is huge stuff!! Really interesting to me personally. I don't have a shop anymore, and I have not done anything amazing in building motors, but I am personally amazed at all that goes on in a running engine. thank you for sharing way more than you should be sharing in truth. Ever get a chance to play with you PCV and auto tune? I hope to get my 6th gear 100% map better dialed in better when I go to the TEXASMILE :) Dusty asked me, "do you think you will ever see 4th gear 100% throttle to red line"...lol All the time dusty, all the time :)

No no no man, you got it all wrong. I shove the cigar in the ports, strip the doll and choke my chicken. :lol:lol:lol:hammer: very funny still laughing:lol Excellant thread guys:thumbup

Well, I am done after that reply....how do I come up with a reply after having that mental picture in my head? :secret:diel I think what Tim is saying that its one of the extreme tests he has to put your cylinder head through to make sure it will be able to smoke anything including bikes even though it does mean choking his chicken,cigars and a naked doll. He has to make sure your cylinder head can breath and smoke properly. I heard each cylinder head can use up to 16 of the finest cuban cigars. Is this true Tim or do you just have one sick fetish?:lol

Nope, i'm just sick and twisted i'm afraid. Its got nothing to do with giving Diel great head .....

How old are you??????? You can believe what you like but you won't find any pro shop worth a shout using those. You can cut as good as a serdi/mira/newen/rottler etc by hand? :drunk: I'm 50 years old since you asked and have been building engines for 30+ years, and, like you state, "you can believe what you like". And yes, absoloutely I can cut as good as a serdi with NEWAY, in fact, actually better. I have also seen 2 heads done by Cooper Performance out of Georgia USA with a Newen machine as was not overly impressed. Good machines for people that dont have the requisite Physical skills to cut seats by hand. Been there, bought the kit, threw it in the store room Sounds like after 15 minutes of trying you just threw it out. :lol Gee this is junk, into the trash can it goes. JJ

I'm 50 years old since you asked and have been building engines for 30+ years, and, like you state, "you can believe what you like". And yes, absoloutely I can cut as good as a serdi with NEWAY, in fact, actually better. I have also seen 2 heads done by Cooper Performance out of Georgia USA with a Newen machine as was not overly impressed. Good machines for people that dont have the requisite Physical skills to cut seats by hand. Been there, bought the kit, threw it in the store room Sounds like after 15 minutes of trying you just threw it out. :lol Gee this is junk, into the trash can it goes. JJ Ok, awesome. Sounds great.

:corn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljjrEGS1yg4&feature=related

I have measured squish on stock 07-08 R1s at 0.87-0.92MM. The YEC kit manual specced minimum squish on those at 0.77MM although you can go closer. If the 09 R1 is at 0.72MM squish, that would be tighter than an R6 and you cant go a whole lot further than that with a stock rod. I never use solder to measure squish as its an imprecise measurement. Also, Tim Radley has talked down to me many times. Rocky Stargel Team Stargel

Also, Tim Radley has talked down to me many times. Careful, people will start thinking you are a hobbit ...... :hammer:

Wow..! If anyone who ever wanted work done on his engine and hasn't got a clue..... He's got to see a specialist with 38"DD tits, a wanger under his dress, does weed and gives great head....:dundun: Never fackin' happened like that for me..!.....:no Ok Tim......... I'm in........ Where the fack are you...?....:lol.....:thumbup .

Wow..! If anyone who ever wanted work done on his engine and hasn't got a clue..... He's got to see a specialist with 38"DD tits, a wanger under his dress, does weed and gives great head....:dundun: Never fackin' happened like that for me..!.....:no Ok Tim......... I'm in........ Where the fack are you...?....:lol.....:thumbup . S'easy. Just follow the rainbow but no stealing my pot of gold ....

For sure the people across the pond have their own special (read gay as hell) brand of humor. I just got done milling a cylinder head with a flat file. I really take my time and get it allot more precise by hand then a numerical controlled machine. Anyway best of luck with your ladyboy situation Tim :)

For sure the people across the pond have their own special (read gay as hell) brand of humor. I just got done milling a cylinder head with a flat file. I really take my time and get it allot more precise by hand then a numerical controlled machine. Anyway best of luck with your ladyboy situation Tim :) I bet that takes a steady hand & a keen eye!

I bet that takes a steady hand & a keen eye! Lol.....:lol....... Which part...? The milling..... ................ Or the Ladyboy.?.........:crash.........:lol ...........:dundun:

Well there's noooo! way! im getting one of these 09 bikes now. Ive been following this thread from the start and ye are all raving weirdo's (gimps, hobbits and lady boys and some ye even have strange richuals eg.chickens and goats and what ever).:scared The 07-08 forum seems so much safer if you don't want your mind corrupted:lol I am going to be very weary of the first 09R1 owned I meet. I now have mental images of all 09 owners being savage looking old dolls with big :boobies and a bulge, or someone thats too short and cant get there leg over the bike with cut outs in their helmets for their pointy ears or someone with a tennis ball in their mouth under there helmet wearing black leathers:lhumper:... Ill definately avoid ye guys:lol:lol:lol BTW Great thread guys, very interesting and funny. All going well diel id say you'll have one amazing bike at the end of it. I can't wait to see the results. :thumbup

I just got done milling a cylinder head with a flat file. I really take my time and get it allot more precise by hand then a numerical controlled machine. I hope you have a lot of years of experience doing it that way.... Head should be in the mail tomorrow. I already received the head gasket and other small parts. Tim is also having his Motec pro make me a sub harness so I can plug my laptop to the ECU thru the stock wiring harness. Ordered a new set of shims which should be here by the end of the week. So we'll see how soon I can get her together once I receive the parts. I also have some of the really short SBK cans for the Akra coming. Friend of a friend deal. I will have to do some running in before going back to the dyno.

I hope you have a lot of years of experience doing it that way.... Head should be in the mail tomorrow. I already received the head gasket and other small parts. Tim is also having his Motec pro make me a sub harness so I can plug my laptop to the ECU thru the stock wiring harness. Ordered a new set of shims which should be here by the end of the week. So we'll see how soon I can get her together once I receive the parts. I also have some of the really short SBK cans for the Akra coming. Friend of a friend deal. I will have to do some running in before going back to the dyno. what else is being done to the engine apart from porting and reshaping the combustion chambers? cams, blue printed, balanced crank etc?

Tims work is very very good from the limited pictures I have seen. I am 100% sure the bike will run very well indeed. be interesting to see the dyno charts from this project, as well as the JUST AS IMPORTANT rider impressions. More is not always better. So hard to get americans to understand that.

Head should be in the mail tomorrow. Sent mate. Enjoy.

Cool man. Thanks a million.

where's the pics????:crash

where's the pics????:crash Hang on, let me get you the tracking number ..... i think you can view the package on their system ..... maybe the x-ray machine at the airport will give you a good view of the ports .....

Believe me, you never EVER want to ask for one of Tim's exhaust port pics....

Hang on, let me get you the tracking number ..... i think you can view the package on their system ..... maybe the x-ray machine at the airport will give you a good view of the ports ..... You're shipping it to the Manassas, VA address, right? :secret::)

Hang on, let me get you the tracking number ..... i think you can view the package on their system ..... maybe the x-ray machine at the airport will give you a good view of the ports ..... c'mon, i promise we wont be TOO critical.....:crash:lol

Believe me, you never EVER want to ask for one of Tim's exhaust port pics.... he's got more then one?:crash

he's got more then one?:crash :lol:lol...:butt:ugh...:hammer:

You can check out my exhaust pictures at www.lookinsidemycornhole.com

Link doesn't work...just post the pics man.

You can check out my exhaust pictures at www.lookinsidemycornhole.com (http://www.lookinsidemycornhole.com) homepage? :dunno:lol:lol

homopage? Ok try www.dieljustpaid12kforaspitshine.com

homopage? Ok try www.dieljustpaid12kforaspitshine.com (http://www.dieljustpaid12kforaspitshine.com) :eek:

homopage? Ok try www.dieljustpaid12kforaspitshine.com (http://www.dieljustpaid12kforaspitshine.com) ......:lol.....:lol......:lol I even clicked on the link..........:no....... Sometimes (most!)..... i'm just plain stupid..:yesnod .

......:lol.....:lol......:lol I even clicked on the link..........:no....... Sometimes (most!)..... i'm just plain stupid..:yesnod . I clicked the other one, I wanted to see Tims exhaust port! :lol

Hey even i clicked on them just to see if they worked. Diel should have the head in a couple days. If he wants to post pics he will. But pictures won't tell you much. You need to see it in the flesh. Anyway, enough about my sister.

Tim, I'm picking a 09 R1 on Thursday or Friday, and my 07 R1 head should be here tomorrow. Stan Hey even i clicked on them just to see if they worked. Diel should have the head in a couple days. If he wants to post pics he will. But pictures won't tell you much. You need to see it in the flesh. Anyway, enough about my sister.

Tim, I'm picking a 09 R1 on Thursday or Friday, and my 07 R1 head should be here tomorrow. Stan Cool. I'll get the wax polish out ;)

Tim's got to lay off the booze :drunk: or I do, that pics kinda fuzzy! at least I can see there's not a turd in there!

Here's a pic Tim sent me of the ports.... :confused: :lol I heard getting pictures was rare.

That's weird, all of us tuners seem to have a problem with camera focus ;)

That's weird, all of us tuners seem to have a problem with camera focus ;) It's all good. :thumbup But you have to admit it's funny as heck :fact

On a serious note, diel what are your expectations from this head work? More midrange, top end, both, a little of one and a lot of the other? JJ

Hey diel, I dyno'ed my bike yesterday, with the follwing mods; BMC Filter Akrapovic Evo full system with CZ cannister Muzzy Block offs PC5 with auto tune and used auto tuned created map for dyno session. Kawasaki race kit intake cam (left the stock exhaust cam in) Degreed Cams to 105 / 105 X-TRE BST rear wheel (not sure how that affects dyno runs and may try it again back to back with BST and stock wheel to find out) 179 RWHP at 12,500 and was still pulling all the way to the soft limiter. Gained about 10 HP in the midrange. For comparison, about 45 minutes later, a new Suzuki 09 K9 with 20 miles on it laid down 162.5 completely stock. Needles to say it is a rocket ship. I mostly ride on the freeways (not by choice) but oh my GOD does that thing take off when you give it the gas. I have a huge pile of mods left over from my first 08 ZX10 and am now ready to install those. JJ

Well, got some cans that fell off the SBK truck. These are pretty short and came with a full set of stickers. Put the long ones on and still have some of the bigger ones. Nice! THAT'S how the rear of that machine should look :cool: Hey diel, I dyno'ed my bike yesterday, with the follwing mods; BMC Filter Akrapovic Evo full system with CZ cannister Muzzy Block offs PC5 with auto tune and used auto tuned created map for dyno session. Kawasaki race kit intake cam (left the stock exhaust cam in) Degreed Cams to 105 / 105 X-TRE BST rear wheel (not sure how that affects dyno runs and may try it again back to back with BST and stock wheel to find out) 179 RWHP at 12,500 and was still pulling all the way to the soft limiter. Gained about 10 HP in the midrange. For comparison, about 45 minutes later, a new Suzuki 09 K9 with 20 miles on it laid down 162.5 completely stock. Needles to say it is a rocket ship. I mostly ride on the freeways (not by choice) but oh my GOD does that thing take off when you give it the gas. I have a huge pile of mods left over from my first 08 ZX10 and am now ready to install those. JJ I'm sorry... if it's been posted and I missed it, I apologize. But what were the cams at prior? And what effect did 105/105 have on the midrange torque?

Well, got some cans that fell off the SBK truck. These are pretty short and came with a full set of stickers. Put the long ones on and still have some of the bigger ones. Very Nice Good to see they didnt make them as short as the 07-08 ones they used to melt the back lights! Any chance of a picture of the full can on the bike?

Well, got some cans that fell off the SBK truck. These are pretty short and came with a full set of stickers. Put the long ones on and still have some of the bigger ones. THose look bad azz! I wanna hear what your bike sounds like when you get her all back together! You got my vote for best 09 so far!

Well, got some cans that fell off the SBK truck. These are pretty short and came with a full set of stickers. Put the long ones on and still have some of the bigger ones. That looks bad ass man. The cans only seem to be about an inch shorter than mine(where it ends, at least). I'm considering cutting mine down to this length... I really like the look of that. Any more pics of them from the side? like full on bike??

I need to have the motor back on so I can line them up properly. Right now they are not exactly where they go.

I need to have the motor back on so I can line them up properly. Right now they are not exactly where they go. They are perfect right there!

Diel, how hard is it now with cross plane cranks to put in aftermarket pistons and rods that are lighter. Im thinking any piston or rod you put in would have to be the same weight as standard or the crank counter weights would have to be lightened also. And how do you lighten a counter weight so its balanced to the lighter pistons / rods ? Would the 09R1 crank be balanced on its own ?

Knowing exactly what a balance shaft does, I bet you could take yours out and it would run with only slight increase in vibes but I wont press the point. I can just imagine what that bastard looks like too. So lets talk compression ratio Diel. How much of that Pommy welding are you going to mill off or has Tim already done that for you. Youre looking at cc'ing right so you might already know what your CR is ?

So basically what this means is you can do what you like to the 09 Head but... Dont Touch The Bottom End.. Damn this thing has turned everything on its head.

Hey diel, I dyno'ed my bike yesterday, with the follwing mods; BMC Filter Akrapovic Evo full system with CZ cannister Muzzy Block offs PC5 with auto tune and used auto tuned created map for dyno session. Kawasaki race kit intake cam (left the stock exhaust cam in) Degreed Cams to 105 / 105 X-TRE BST rear wheel (not sure how that affects dyno runs and may try it again back to back with BST and stock wheel to find out) 179 RWHP at 12,500 and was still pulling all the way to the soft limiter. Gained about 10 HP in the midrange. For comparison, about 45 minutes later, a new Suzuki 09 K9 with 20 miles on it laid down 162.5 completely stock. Needles to say it is a rocket ship. I mostly ride on the freeways (not by choice) but oh my GOD does that thing take off when you give it the gas. I have a huge pile of mods left over from my first 08 ZX10 and am now ready to install those. JJ Do you have any graphs you can post up?

awesome thread, i'll be following it along

I promise people will be changing the bottom end eventually.

my k8 on my local dyno was at 163 stock, and 172 after a pipe and no tune. I am guessing I will be 175-180 on the next dyno session, and I have not changed anything in the motor besides the oil. Really strong motor package stock to be honest. but every dyno is different, and just having the power does not promise a win over a less powerful bike in the real world.

Hey ausome thread. Diel how much BWHP are you looking at getting after the engine mod? and how much has the engine modifications set you back in dollars?

Not sure on hp, but it should be a bit more than stock. You can get pricing by sending a pm to "Tim Radley".

Just a note on the balancer issue. Typical 180 cranks use them to cancel out second order vibrations, this is why they will normally spin at 2 times of the cranks rpm. Because of the uneven firing order of the new R1 the engine wants to rock like a like a top along the axis of the crank. I'll post a pick in a few days that will give you guys a better idea. Pulling balancers out of 180deg. engines merely increases their vibration, on the new R1 it could produce extremely scary handling. It would try to lean farther over during a turn then pick it self up and then lean over again. But at frequency of the cranks rpm.

Just a note on the balancer issue. Typical 180 cranks use them to cancel out second order vibrations, this is why they will normally spin at 2 times of the cranks rpm. Because of the uneven firing order of the new R1 the engine wants to rock like a like a top along the axis of the crank. I'll post a pick in a few days that will give you guys a better idea. Pulling balancers out of 180deg. engines merely increases their vibration, on the new R1 it could produce extremely scary handling. It would try to lean farther over during a turn then pick it self up and then lean over again. But at frequency of the cranks rpm. :corn Yeah...so..pull it. Personally I wouldnt be satisfied till I tried it without a balance shaft.

:corn Yeah...so..pull it. Personally I wouldnt be satisfied till I tried it without a balance shaft. personally i wouldn't be doing it unless i could afford the new motor i'd probably need after it vibrated itself into tiny expensive pieces! :)

:corn Yeah...so..pull it. Personally I wouldn't be satisfied till I destroyed a new bike :finger

Just a note on the balancer issue. Typical 180 cranks use them to cancel out second order vibrations, this is why they will normally spin at 2 times of the cranks rpm. Because of the uneven firing order of the new R1 the engine wants to rock like a like a top along the axis of the crank. I'll post a pick in a few days that will give you guys a better idea. Correct. The new balancer is 1:1 with crank. Its not a cruising speed vibration damper!!

Those of you reading this thread should enjoy this article. Sorry about having to registrar. http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/5586

Got the head a couple of hours ago. About to check shims, then check cam timing. Shooting to have the thing back in the frame and fired up tonight, we'll see what happens. The combustion chamber is super small. :rock:rock

Look forward to hearing about it :thumbup Damn good turnaround when you consider the distances invovlved as well. Impressive.

Sound good to me.. I'm about to send my 07 R1 head to Tim some time this week. Stan Worked out perfectly and Tim is not a lazy guy anyway. The temps here just finally got to 70's consistently, so the timing was dead on. I am going to install the cams on the regular holes now and measure cam timing to see how far from 105/105 it is. If it's close, these cams will be pretty much drop in with stock springs and everything. Anyone interested can contact Tim Radley about them. I'll post up in a bit about the timing.

I don't even want to know the cost of those billet cams.. :eek:

I don't even want to know the cost of those billet cams.. :eek: Just order them, Nick :secret: I live vicariously through the budget of others :crash

Worked out perfectly and Tim is not a lazy guy anyway. The temps here just finally got to 70's consistently, so the timing was dead on. I am going to install the cams on the regular holes now and measure cam timing to see how far from 105/105 it is. If it's close, these cams will be pretty much drop in with stock springs and everything. Anyone interested can contact Tim Radley about them. I'll post up in a bit about the timing. There should be plenty of clearance. I've designed these cams to be a drop-in cam for the 09 R1, hence they are designed to run on the stock springs and be kind on the valvetrain. Should give you quite a bit more top end and a bit more mid and upper mid. Might loose a touch at the very bottom but from what you said its got more than enough there.

you design cams Tim? **** man just how smart are you?

(grrrraaagggllllle) paddy's day:)