cornering speed

Hey buddies...;) gonna give yall a chance to laugh at the dumb inexperienced rider... i have never been to a racing school or anything that teaches theory on cornering with speed so i was wondering a couple of things... first of all...how fast can i make tight corners? for example...on our highways...US the corners are marked for what speed you should take them at...assuming you are driving a dump truck or something... how much over those speeds do you guys..and girls normally go..ex..if it is a 25 mph corner...can you go 75? just not sure what is feasible yet... secondly...with brakeing into the corner...ive read a bit about trail braking...and have been watching the racers but was wondering how far into the corner it is best to brake until?....the apex?...probably before... i am kinda nervous about leaning it over when braking hard on the front... also what about throttle position...do you try to keep some constant power to the back wheel or only after the apex...or i just dont know...someone filll me in thanks in advance branden:jump

By the way, love your avatar picture. Anyway, its best to brake before the turn then roll on the throttle gently keeping good traction on both wheels throughout your turn. If you brake hard while leaned over in the turn, all the weight will suddenly be transferred to the front causing a greater chance of the rear sliding out. For a good book on cornering theory, check out Keith Code's A Twist of The Wrist 2.

This corner here, in phoenix, is marked as a 30mph corner, you can see how fast I go through it (get to 104 toward the exit of the corner). It all depends on the layout of the corner, how good your tires are and how much skill you have. as far as braking goes, I'll usually get all my braking done before I start to lean it over. sometimes I'll wait till I start the lean before I let off. another good book by Keith Code is "Soft Science of Roadracing Motorcycles" later :thumbup

ok that helps something else how far over do you have to lean before you must put your knee down... does that knee support weight or is it just for balance¿? also on the exit from the corner do you have to straighten up before you really gas it...?¿ im guessing that if i give it hard on exit i could spin out the back end ok going for a ride now.. thanks again ps nice girlfriend dank:boobies :machinegu

dank, I wouldn't wanna take a fall at that speed in THAT corner. You'd be made into Swedish meatballs if you end up in the rail there. Ouch

Racers use their knees to gauge how far they are leaned over :thumbup

You can usually double or triple corner speeds in a good situation. THere are some good turns where I ride that are marked 30mph that I routinely take at 100mph (while scraping a peg no doubt). I'll have to admit that it isnt that safe, my back end slid out when my peg hit too hard today, but oh well. Just remember that street riding isnt all that safe. I only like to push it on roads that dont have that much traffic, are freshly paved, and that dont have guardrails. I save the really good stuff for the track dayz! As long as its warm, your street tires should hold up fine too. Phil

You do not need to drag a knee at any point UNLESS you want to. The reason racers drag a knee while hanging off the inside of the bike is because it helps with traction. The tire has a larger contact patch available at the center of the tire than as you approach either of the edges. I've leaned my bike over farther by not hanging off. You can see this for yourself by looking at the rear tire after hanging off. I wear my tire to edge without hanging off and after I get my knee down there is still about an 1" to an 1-1/2" of tire left before I get to the edges. Racers also use the knee dragging technique for stability also but they are only lightly skimming the road surface with their knee. If you were to try and put a lot of weight on your knee, the friction would either try to rip your knee/leg backward or take you off the bike (I'm guessing, never done it). I've dragged sticky rubber soled shoes hard and the result is that my foot comes off the peg and is kicked toward the back of the bike (not a good thing!). You definitely don't want to whack open the throttle as you have your knee down or even if you're leaned over pretty good. If you do, it will result in a nasty high-side where the rear tire loses traction and then spins and catches again, throwing you off the bike! I almost had this happen to me on my VF500F that makes all of 68 horsepower. That was when I was younger and inexperienced..... Get your braking done before entering the corner! As you feel more comfortable with braking, you can trail-brake (lightly) up to the apex of the corner. I've read all of Keith Code's books and would highly recommend them to you. He talks about all the stuff you're wondering about. One thing he teaches is that the front tire (and the back tire for that matter) has a finite amount of traction. Cornering forces and braking forces affect how much the front can handle. The more you're leaned over, the less braking force can be applied without causing it to lock the front and slide out on you (front wheel slides aren't good for us mere mortals). Once again, the contact patch phenomena. Sorry for the long post, I hope this helps! ;)

another book i found useful for street riding is "Sportbiking: The Real World (The Advanced Riders Handbook)" by Gary Jahne. i also have a related questions: generally speaking, how soon do you guys get on the gas and when do you find that you have reasonable rear traction to start your drive out of a corner? this is my first 4cyl so i'm still adjusting. i got fair warning when i switched over to be careful with corner exit since i was so used to getting on the gas early and hard with my lazy v-twin. i am definitely getting the rear to step out (not bad and pretty predictably) but then again, my suspension is still being figured out. k

At first(beginners) here is the process: -brake -lean -corner -straighten -accelerate As you get better at feeling the bike(suspension/traction) and controlling the throttle(the most important skill), you can blend these steps more and more. If you want to gas it out of the corner earlier, or brake while leaning, you have to be comfortable with feeling the traction and throttle. Racers go so much faster than street riders because they are always riding at the limit of the traction - braking/cornering/accelerating right at the edge; anything else is slower. You can decide to work on improving any one of these combos and your cornering will change a lot. Last summer I was working on going from straight up to the lean for the corner(flicking it over faster). It gave me more time actually cornering and my stress levels at wicked corner speeds went down. I also recommend Twist of the Wrist 2; Awesome book!:cool:

well i found a couple of twisty roads last night HWY C...you know if its a highway named by one letter its probably pretty vacant...right? at least in wiscony... couple of 10mph corners and a 20 mph left then 20mph right..had a blast...i felt like i had it leaned over pretty good... once i felt like i had to adjust in the turn and kind of push it down farther into the lean to make the turn...the 10 mph one...not sure how fast i was going...wasnt really looking...is that normal\\safe ?? looked at my tires afterward and there is only about an inch of rubber that has never met road...so that must mean something...well according to some other thread that i read on here... well i will definately have to check out those books... thanks for all the advice... keep it comin!!!:jump

I would give serious thought to going to either a racing/performance street riding type of school or at least to a track day at a local track. You will learn tonnes from other riders there. Knee gragging really is to just gauge angle of lean and occassionally to help correct a babble. The idea with hanging off is to actually keep the bike more verticle so that you can transfer the combined cg of both bike/rider. If you want to feather the tyre's tread to the edges sooner than don't hang off. When exiting a corner - at/or beyond apex, I literally push the bike toward the outside of the corner whilst I'm hanging off to stand it up on the centre contact patch quicker to feed in more throttle. Your experience/training/skill may vary. Error on the safe side, working up to your limits.:eek:

Tight corners are more of a challenge because of the limited time you have to traverse them. Control inputs must be executed with greater precision and timing. And it's easier to overwhelm the tires and fall the slower you're going, as you don't have as much momentum or gyroscopic stability as you do in mid and high speed turns. I don't recommend finding the fastest turn you can and blasting thru it if you're still learning, but find one that allows you to maintain about 45 mph from start to finish comfortably yet at a brisk pace. Run it until you can duplicate the exact spots where you finish braking, countersteer it over and apply throttle. Do all this using the same line every time, along an 18" wide path. Strive to be consistent. Then incrementally add 1 or 2 mph and repeat. Eventually, you'll be able to get in and out of there pretty quick at a much higher speed. Just don't force it - don't get beyond your abilities. Uncertainty is a warning sign - heed it and figure out your weakness before proceeding. Off the bike, run the turn in your head as if you're actually doing it. Note the spots where you're unsure about what you're doing or what's happening to the bike. Those are the areas that deserve your attention, and where you'll find improvement for your technique. You should never be lost in the corner, or not know what's going to happen next. Keep your eyes looking ahead, not right in front of you - seek the exit. Dragging knee, pegs or shift and brake levers just happens the faster you go. It's a benchmark, not a goal - just something to let you know that that particular speed is pretty fast for that corner. It takes time to handle a bike anywhere near it's capabilities. It doesn't happen overnight. Be smooth, take your time, and look ahead. Dave J

If you are getting the rear to "step out" while going around a corner, you my friend are in a rider category way above me! Leaving darkies on the road caused by spinning up the rear tire while rounding a corner is something I've never done and probably will never do unless completely by accident! That technique is used by all of the fastest motorcycle roadracers worldwide and was learned by most while riding their motocross bikes in a fairly more forgiving environment - in the dirt! I finish my braking before I initiate the turn in for the corner (unless I go into the corner to hot - then I'll brake up to the apex using light pressure on the front brake). As soon as I hit the apex of the corner I roll on the throttle and as my bike approaches vertical I continue to roll on the throttle. Once your bike is near vertical you can nail the gas! You just have to be careful - the closer you are to your maximum lean, the less gas you can give it! Remember to look where you want to go when you're in the corner. The farther ahead you can look, the better. It will help you to exit the corner where you want to and it also helps to tell your brain that you aren't really going that fast around a corner...... Riding a bike fluently (and please don't think I'm saying that I do!) requires a lot of practice and knowledge. I would recommend a track riding school and if you don't have access to this, at least one of the books mentioned previously. P.S. - Those unscuffed areas of the tire as you approach the edge are called "chicken strips". :lol

just wanted to comment on the post above; all good stuff except the braking up to the apex part. if you are coming in hot and are grabbing brake while leaned (obvious exclusion is the technique of trail braking) you are upsetting your suspension and you will overload your front tire, which is indeed a very bad thing. the correct thing to do is stay cool and maintain a minimal throttle rollon. I know, easier said than done when panic kicks in. if you are coming in impossibly hot and you know it, I'd say stand her up and brake like hell. hope for the best.

Just wanted to defend my position on using the front brake lightly up to the apex. The word is *lightly* and it is called trail braking. If you watch AMA racing, WSB racing, or Moto GP racing, you'll see the riders using their right hand to apply the front brake up to the apex. Granted, I'm not in their league..... The chassis is not upset by slightly using the front brake. If you get ham-fisted, it surely will! You'll overload the front tire and it'll low-side you sooner than you can say "Oh s**t!!!!". The best technique is to roll onto the throttle all the way through the corner but sometimes the corner tightens up and you just don't feel you can crank it over any more...... Who here truly rides their bike and has never gone into a corner too hot?

There were some good comments here:) I'll chime in a little. Trail braking is a valuable and necessary tool for any roadracer, and an advanced skill that faster street riders will aquire somewhere along the line. Track days on a closed circuit and controlled environment are a better place to " experiment " with trail braking than a gravel strewn decressing radius 20mph downhill bend on a public hwy ;) Corners marked 20 mph or below are TRULY wonderful places to find out about gravity and traction ( or the lack there of ) in a big way. I wouldn't experiment with a lot of technique things on corners marked less than 35 mph ( UNLESS I knew it like the back of my hand ) For the reason Dave mentioned, gyroscopic stability. Getting out of shape or having to make a major correction in a really slow corner, is riskier, IMO , as far as crashing goes, than a higher speed corner ( unless you REALLY screw up:p ). And hanging off............ The new bikes all WORK better with a cheek off and the inside peg weighted into whatever hand corner you are negotiating. Origionally, Jarno sarineen and Kenny Roberts ( the REALLY good one ;) ) did this to keep the tires off the edges and hold the bike more upright with a fatter part of the tire in contact with the tarmac leading to earlier throttle openings after corner apexes. You don't have to hang off to go fast, but most fast guys do, to varying degrees. An example, I bang my right knee lightly on the entrance to T1 at PIR, T2, left hand T3 and then only at hi speed T9 onto the straight. Only lightly;) My kid BURIES his knee in virtually EVERY corner, and will wear out a set of pucks every 2 race wknds.:eek: That's HIS style, and he uses the knee for a feeler, indicator, AND to occassionally pick up the front end when he loses it pushing too hard.:eek: Different styles, different comfort levels. The funny thing is, I still carry as much absolute corner speed as he does, we just get there differently. Where he blisters this olddog badly is on corner entries:confused: , but that's another matter. Good thread:thumbup

One run I went on when I first started riding, I was trying to keep up with a bunch of guys WAY better and WAY faster than me. I was on a Ninja ZX-6R and they were all on R1's and CBR900's. There was one particular 55mph corner that I was taking at about 125. I wasn't a very experienced rider and didn't know anything about hanging off the bike. As I reached the apex, I had to lean it over even farther to avoid running wide into the oncoming traffic. I just looked and leaned and before I knew it, I could feel the pegs scraping. After the adrenaline rush, we all pulled over to get gas and I saw that I not only wore a quarter inch off the peg feelers, I also was scraping about a square foot of the lower fairing. Any more lean and I would have just washed the whole bike out. At 125 into oncoming traffic, I don't see how could've turned out good at all. I'm a lot more careful now, though. These days I spark the pegs on purpose instead of accident.. :thumbup

You need to corner how you feel most confortable. The racers brake deep into corners to defend their possition, the ideal is the brake, tip in whilst giving a small amount of throttle to gain a 60/40% weight distribution on the rear and front wheels respectivley however, their are tracks I have been on where certain corners (dobule apex or decreasing radius) means braking into the corner adds up to a faster lap. Just make sure you have rear good rubber. I swear by Dunlop 207 and 208 GP's REAL sticky.

Originally posted by Olddog And hanging off............ The new bikes all WORK better with a cheek off and the inside peg weighted into whatever hand corner you are negotiating. Hey Olddog - I have always been confused by what peg to keep weighted as I have heard some say the inside peg and others say the outside peg. I have tried both inside and outside theorys and I am not sure if I can tell which one works better for me. I want to say that in Twist of the Wrist II Keith talks about loading the outside peg (i may be wrong as it has been a while since I have been back through the book) but I am curious on your thoughts and what the pros and cons are of weighting the inside versus the outside or visa versa. Thanks.

Sorry if I stated something imprecisely. I TRY my best to stay away from these conversations about counter steering vs. body english etc. They are a dog chasing it's own tail;) Once past a pace of 20 or 25 mph you ARE going to introduce countersteering, or you will crash:p As Martinic and others stated, a combination of counter steering and body english is the most efficient and quickest way to turn It's like the chicken and the egg if done properly ( you know, which came first ? ;) ) as the act of weighting the pegs to slide your torso into the proper position helps induce countersteering. Countersteering itself is ultimately the important objective of the two, body english compliments the act. The peg thing................. I guess if I really think about it, it could be described as outside peg as well , even though if setting up for a right hander initially I push down more forcefully on the right foot peg. At the turn in point I adjust my foot slightly to ride on the ball of my foot on the right side, ( for clearance) hooking the tank with my left thigh in the process. I actually use peg pressure more for setting up to go left right or visa versa, than to pay a great deal of attention to them mid- corner. I'll tell you what. I'm teaching a class this Fri at PIR and I will pay special attention to the mechanics of what I'm doing to explain it better. Sorry;) I think a lot of the stuff ( almost all ) that Code and the other true Guru's teach is really good stuff........., but sometimes, as with countersteering, that there is an over abundance of words and thoughts that confuse the simplicity of the act itself. Sorry if I, with all my:bs extra words have muddied the waters even further:yesnod

Thank you. If you do think about the peg weighting at the next track day I would love to hear back what you thought worked best. My problem is I forgot about details such as proper peg weighting when I am at the track. I have just a few main thoughts such as hitting my braking marks, looking through the corner to where I want to go and rolling the throttle on from apex to the next breaking point. Some how all that happens :) and I don't spend any thought of did I weight the inside or outside peg. Maybe that 's the way it should happen at the track but then I get out on the street, the pace is slower and I have time to direct my thoughts to diffrent areas and start playing with diffrent ideas. Something does feel diffrrent when I put more force on the outside peg verses the inside but I couldn't tell you which feels better and based on your experiance I was just interested in your thoughts. Thanks again.

in my experience: you must not guage a corner by the speed posted on a sign.... this is a good way to get yourself killed. if i am riding a particular road--i like to do a trial run, to look for debris, and road conditions. however, most of my riding is done on a track! joe

Have you ever taken a corner like a 30mph posted and taken it at 100? Dank is taking one at 95 i see. -SpeedFreak :rock

Weigh the pegs mid corner and exit to best effects. Weigh the inside peg mid corner without adding more counter-steer (don't want input on the bars mid-corner) to tighten up your line and get the rear spinning up while weighing peg and giving throttle. Weigh the outside peg to control exit and mid corner slides and provide more traction to rear tire. You can exit corners a lot harder by learning to weigh the outside peg.

Originally posted by Olddog ... Trail braking is a valuable and necessary tool for any roadracer, and an advanced skill that faster street riders will aquire somewhere along the line. ... This is a good thread, lots of interesting techniques. I believe the biggest advantage of trail braking is that the front suspension is compressed by the brake prior to entering the corner. If you're really smooth (which is always good) cornering forces will keep the forks compressed as you gradually reduce brake lever pressure during the transition to full lean. Minimizing front suspension movement maximizes contact patch stability, and therefore traction. So you can bring the speed into the corner, get it leaned, and manitain that speed thru the apex, out the exit and down the straight. I view trail braking as a compromise between the classic line and squaring it off. For me, it is often the quickest, and on the street especially, the safest way to go fast. You turn in late, reducing the time at full lean (where your options are limited), yet you're not going in as deep and hot as you do when squaring it off (so it's less likely the front will tuck because of the harder braking and lower speed turn in point). Dave J

Heres another pic of a turn on hwy 153 in phoenix, on the high speed corners I usually just roll my body a few inches toward either side, and just hug the bike, keep my leg tucked against the fairing. Keep your upper body very relaxed too. I've only scraped my pegs once on a clover leaf type ramp, posted 15, doing about 40. It scared the hell outta me at first. Then I was all proud. Now I'm finally going to take it to track this month.:crash :rock

Is that corner in your first picture the Tucson offramp going south on I 10? If not man I know where the best offramp is. Go to the airport and then go south toward tucson on I-10, just before the freeway ends you go right onto it. It's nice smooth pavement and a constant 180 degree turn. Good stuff... :thumbup

link... The first pic is at the SkyHarbor Exit from 143 north, I think the Other turn your thinking of is on 143 heading south, Tuscon exit. Thats the one that I mentioned dragging my peg going to pavillions saturday? :machinegu :machinegu :machinegu

hahahah anyhow...thanks for all the feedback everyone... :p man i really want to go to one of those racing schools or at least do a track day... how much do those schools cost??? im feeling pretty confident on the corners now and also have a lot more of the mechanics of turning to think about... thanks... ps olddog will you teach me to race, im a good learner!! :crash

No I'm not going to pavillions. I dont have my bike yet, I should be picking up an '02 pretty soon here. But anyway, yeah man that skyharbor exit is sweet. And yeah I was talking about the 143 heading south. We gotta go riding when i get my bike. Another cool spot i just discovered... Go south on I-10 and take the first exit right after chandler (I cant remember the name of the exit). It's all brand new and no one ever goes on it. Just imagine, 5 lanes wide of flat straight pavement. Then once you get to the first traffic light hang a U left. Then that takes you an the brand new overpass. Ive been on this a few times and since its so new you dont really have to worry about cagers. :cool: It's a long slow bending corner thats about 100 feet in the air. Try it out. Im pretty sure you can drag the pegs on it.

Ive scraped my pegs a couple of times, but i swear i didnt mean to. What touched the ground first is usually my foot, how do you guys place your feet on the pegs when cornering. It seems like my big feet hit the ground first than the pegs. And you know what they say about Big feet.... Big crashes... Ricardo

Originally posted by ricardo ...how do you guys place your feet on the pegs when cornering. It seems like my big feet hit the ground first than the pegs. Ricardo After downshifting during the approach to the corner, place the ball of your foot on the peg. Tuck your foot up against the heel guard and raise the heel as if you're pointing your toes at the ground slightly. Slide half a cheek off the seat and countersteer it over. If you're regularly dragging hard parts on the street, you should hang off more and get back on the meat of the tire. Being at the limit is fine at the track, but the "earth - sky - earth -sky - ambulance" thing is much less forgiving when you're mixing it up with cars and guardrails. Dave J

I dragged pegs in my MSF class. The chick teaching the class seemed to like it, even though she was trying to act like I shouldn't be doing it. Gotta love those 250 Nighthawks!!:thumbup