More countersteering or more lean?

I find myself using more countersteering than leaning my body off of the bike. A couple of my buddies, though, lean considerably off the bike and say they don't countersteer much. We all can take turns at about the same speed, so I'm not sure what the difference is. What's the best way to go the fastest, the safest?

have you seen this article at 2wf? http://www.2wf.com/articles/stories/AB44B4F1-B8AF-440C-911D-3B3744371990.asp i believe that the pridmores disagree with keith code and maintain that body english (shifting body weight) can be used to initiate a turn, or some combination thereof. anyway, i'd stick with what works for you. everyone has their own style. i consciously countersteer at speeds over ~6mph and have been known to hang off the bike here and there. speaking of which, when you hang off the bike you shift the cg so that they can get away with less lean for the same speed and radius (conveniently, the same concept applies in the rain). since hanging off should be completed before turn in, and preferably before you get hard on the brakes, it should have no effect on the action of steering. i'm no expert tho - just my $0.02. k

Here is what I think.... Both are essential in initiating good turns. If you dont lean or hang off the bike a little, you are going to feel strange going through a turn while sitting straight up in the seat. If you dont countersteer enough, the bike will turn but all the leaning in the world wont get the desired result that countersteering will. Besides that, countersteering requires less effort than leaning too. I'm an advocate for both. However, its a given that that increasing countersteer will increase lean angle, and to compensate for this I always look a little farther through the turn, and roll the throttle a little more. Hope this helps... Phil

Phil, I agree with you. I think that when you countersteer, you automatically (or instinctively) lean into the corner. However, I guess I'm just comparing my riding style to that of my buddies', and it appears as if they lean off their bikes much further than I do going through the same turn at the same speed. It almost appears as if they lean off their bikes just for the sake of leaning off their bike, not necessarily gaining any more speed in the process. So I'm just wondering what other people think. Thanks for all the input so far.

Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth... You can initiate a turn by countersteering alone or countersteering and hanging off but you can't initiate a turn (a controlled one anyway) by hanging off alone... To prove my point, the next time you're riding down the freeway, consciously countersteer into the next lane... easy right?? Now try changing lanes while consciuosly keeping the bars straight and hang off to one side using your body weight alone... not as easy or controlled i'll bet... Also try this... While sitting in your chair, put your hands out in front of you like you were on your bike (hands still in front of you, both equally bent or fully straight)... hang off the left side of your chair... notice that your right arm would be pulling while your left arm pushes the bars to the right... so what happens when you hang off??... you're unconsciously countersteering. So how important is countersteering... VERY... hanging off also has it's place but don't be fooled that you can get away with hanging off alone... Sorry for the long reply but i hope it helps... :thumbup

I have taken both jason pridmore's starmotorcycle school and keith code's california superbike school. I have to say that I really didn't learn body steering despite the 2-day school. I have done plenty of experiments myself on the concept of body steering. I have held on to the gas tank, push down on the peg, and try to lean the bike but to avail. You can lean off the bike all you want but if you don't apply counter steering your bike simply won't turn. :fact For those advocates of body steering or leaning, they are actually countersteering indirectly with their body, whether thy believe it or not. :fact

thanks for all the insight btw, rocktboy... what kind of dog is that in your avatar? :yesnod

thirtyaughtsix, that was a really interesting article... thanks a lot for posting it. it's pretty conclusive when you think of a bike where the handle bars don't aren't attached to the front wheel. I guess my buddies are just leaning off their bikes more just for show than anything else to look :cool: haha... anyway... I guess I'll be sticking with the countersteering and the natural leans that it induces. Thanks again.

Body steering vs counter steering; consider: Take a motorcycle at speed (above parking lot speed), a left turn is approaching and you want to safely negociate the corner. You counter steer by nudging the bars to the left which causes the tyre to flop to its' right side, resulting in the bike veering to the left. Now let's pick up the pace a bit. You want to hang off "so you can corner faster". Besides it look really cool. One of the things a rider does when hanging off is apply weight to other parts of the motorcycle. E.g more weight on the inside peg; more weight on the outside tank side; more weight on the inside sub-frame rail (under the seat), etc. All of these acts contribute to counter steering. How? Imgine you're riding in a straight line - at a speed sufficiant to stabilize the bike. Hands not on the grips, or only just enough to keep the bike steady. Now you snug your right knee into the tank's cut-outs whilst at the same time you un-weight the right foot peg, and place at that weight on the left peg - doing it quickly. The tyres are pushed out from underneath their selves (slightly). Encouraging the bike to turn to the left. You just counter steered. How? Because by doing the above acts you've caused the front tyre to rotate off it's centre line toward the right. Effectively causing the bike to go left. Oh yeah, you've also just body steered. The two are not exclusive of each other.:makeout

Interesting experiment #2: Grab on to your mirror stalks and try to make the bike turn. No turning, I´m sure.

doing only one of both style will get you through a corner,but doing both will get you there faster. check out Mick Doohan style;some corner he used knee-on-tarmac style,other corner he kept his body almost straight,but with his weight all over the tank pusshing the bar very much. hanging off the bike forces you to counter-steer anyways...but this is good for race track use. just counter-steering let the bike be more upright(road riding)giving a fater tire contact patch-if you are not going too fast,of course-hanging off the bike-if you are not going fast enough-put you at risk hell i dont know if you can make out what i"m trying to say here,i lost myself... :no

No corner can be taken at speed unless it is initiated by countersteering. Most people do it without even knowing they're doing it. Seems kind of weird to steer right to turn left..... It really blew my mind when I thought about it!:confused:

<---------- it's my siberian husky when he was a puppy:jump

I would suggest your buddies do it without realising. By shifting body weight, the bike will naturally 'lay' the way of the turn. In addition, the centre of gravitiy is now lower and better palce (after getting off). Take a look at the pros, the GP and SBK riders, How many of those stay seated on the bike....

I'm sure that they do countersteer without realizing it or else they wouldn't be turning. But I just think that if I can take the exact same turn just as fast or even faster without even taking my butt off the seat, then they aren't really benefiting too much from it. But I guess to every man his own, right?

I just relized I do some counter steering sometimes. You have to do that when the road surface doesn't submit high speed cornering.

Ok, I admit i am really dumb. I am sure i do it but what is stearing and counterstearing. I can imagine what stearing it but for some reason i am unable to picture what counterstearing is. just a quick refresher please? -SpeedFreak :iamwithst

Everyone countersteers. If you doubt it ride keith codes fixed frame bike. It locvks the forks forward and you have to steer with just leaning. No amout of leaning turned that bike the slightest.

Countersteering: Push the right bar forward to turn to the right, push the left bar forward to turn left. You are basically turning the wheel slightly in the OPPOSITE direction to which side you want the bike to turn, hence the name countersteering! This is only applies at above parking lot speeds. Kind of weird when you think about it....... :confused:

sweet! -SpeedFreak :rock

Counter steer is needed to get through a turn some people realize it some don't as sead earlier. I think the point of the keth code schools empisis is on turning quicker. Go in deep slam it down and straiten it up again as quickly as possible;le the longer you are leaned all the way over the less you can be going at max speed or max acceleration. Leaning off the bike gives you more control when you are leaned over you run out of tire slower and have more grip. Different bikes and Different lines require different amounts of lean. It is fun to lean it all the way over but the goal in racing is to go through the corner the quickest (or leave it with the most speed)not having the highest corner speed. That is the benefit of counter steer oriented thought.

So when i am in a right corner i put forward pressure on the right bar and reverse pressure on the left and it makes me cut sharper? Is that what countersteering is about? -SpeedFreak

Hey SpeedFreak! Countersteering isn't used when you're in the corner; it's used to start the corner. In order to begin to take a corner, you must take action to make your bike begin to turn. You do this by countersteering. If you want to turn to the right, you push forward slightly on the right handlebar grip and you could pull back on the left handlebar grip. The faster you do this, the quicker the bike will go from going straight to banked into a corner. Once the bike has "fallen" into the corner after countersteering, tightening the line up is a matter of leaning more to the inside of the corner (shifting your weight) and/or slowing down given that you don't shift your weight. When in this corner that leads to the right, your bike's contact patches are now right of the center of the tire, and you are in effect balancing between falling over to the inside of the corner and standing the bike up and running off your intended line due to centrifugal force. You don't want to countersteer while you're already banked over for a corner because it could cause the front to lose traction and wash out on you. This is going to sound crazy but one way to prove to yourself what countersteering is: take a slight corner at 25 - 30mph with just one hand on the bar. Probably 95% of riders feel more comfortable turning to the left so that's what I'll recommend. Ride with just your right hand on the grip using the throttle to control your speed. You will pull your right grip back just slightly to initiate the corner (you are turning the wheel to the right when you want to turn to the left - countersteering!). Once you are leaned over slightly, your hand will not be doing a much work at all, just steadying the bike. If you're going to do this "experiment", I recommend you take an easy corner (nothing more than a 45 degree corner) and do it somewhere with no traffic, plenty of run-off room and have your other hand ready, just in case you need to grab the bar to make the corner! One crucial part of this experiment is that you have to be moving faster than parking lot speeds or else it won't work. There is a point where countersteering does not work because you are going too slow. Good luck and let me know how it turns out (unless you crash)..... :eek:

Originally posted by SpeedFreak So when i am in a right corner i put forward pressure on the right bar and reverse pressure on the left and it makes me cut sharper? Is that what countersteering is about? -SpeedFreak er.......if you push on one and pull the other,you may be in for a surprise...just push on one and hold the other...that will do it(but you are already doing it)

I'm no racer but when I try to really snap the bike over, I push/pull the bars with both hands. You only do it for a fraction of an inch anyway but you'd be surprised how much quicker it'll set for the corner! Try it sometime.;)

All motorcycle steering is initiated by countersteering inputs. It is mandated by the physics involved. Put Pridmore on the no BS bike, and he will not be able to steer, end of story. BTW, it is not a fixed fork bike, it has two sets of bars and two throttles, one on the normal clip-on, and another on a fixed dummy bar that is attached to the front fairing stay. This way, one can continue to provide for their ususal throttle control while attempting to body steer using the fixed, non-steering bars. Anyone who believes they provide effective or accurate steering control using body steering soon discovers how very badly mistaken they are when they try it on the no BS machine. And, yes, countersteering is useful while turning if the rider has made a turn entry error resulting in a poor line that needs mid-turn correction. Additionally, countersteering is also utilized in standing the bike back up at the turn exit, but instead of pushing on the inside bar (or pulling on the outside bar), one pushes on the outside bar (or pulls on the inside bar). And if one's technique has aquired this particular style, there is nothing surprising about using a push on the inside bar combined with a pull on the outside bar to apply a well controlled countersteering input.

Originally posted by Swedie I just relized I do some counter steering sometimes. You have to do that when the road surface doesn't submit high speed cornering. Sometimes? You have to do that always, or you will change direction of the bike so slowly that you'll run out of road.

From all the guys who race that i know, they say that one factor in sliding your ass off the seat in a turn, is that if you do manage to slide and start to lowside you have a better chance of just letting the bike fall and not creating a high side. a highside is a damn good way of killing yourself. If you lowside let it go. Don't try to correct. Especially if you are cooking. Peace..... Live long.Ride smart.:D

One of the biggest advantages of the "hanging off" riding style is that it allows you to keep the bike in a more upright position increasing ground clearance and more importantly maintaining a larger tire contact patch with the road therfore increasing available traction from the tires.

LIke everyone above said... countersteering is just for initiating the turn. You don't want to countersteer while in the turn because your front might loose the grip and off you go eating pavemant. :confused: try this... when you ride on the street, lets say at 30mph turn your steering to the left...where do you go? you go to the right. cool huh? I been riding not even a year now but I learned what I know from my friends that been riding for 15-20 years now. Once you get that countersteering technique done, next step is to get used to "get off the bike", so when you are in the turn, just move your butt crack to the endge of the seat. It will feel weird at first but you will get used to this. I felt weird at first doing it and just didn't feel ok, so after looking at some pictures and watching lots of speed vision I noticed that the rider actually moves forward a little when they hang off the bike. I tried that and it felt much better. Next step is to stick your knee out. When you do it in the turn, it will help your bike to be "swooped" around the turn... Just my .02 cents... someone let me know if thats correct???

One thing I have started doing that I noticed helps get me to lean my body is to get my head off-center. When you start to lean the bike over, don't leave your head in the centerline of the bike, get it perpendicular to the road and "inside" the bike in the turn. Look up through the turn, and your head will help pull you body over on the bike.

Countersteering is definitely indispensable. Leaning can help make the bike more stable and allows for more of a contact patch when in a turn. And as someone else said, leaning off and forward feels pretty natural, to me at least.