Opened up my Yamaha oil filter after 500 miles

Ok here are pics of inside the filter and element. Bike has 5000 miles post removel of filter, oil and filter has been changed 5 times by the book break in and every 1000 miles therafter. Always used yamaha oil filter and mx4t mobil synthetic since birth. I assume this is what it should look like. I took a flashlight to it and seen no metalic flakes. the element material did however seem rather brittle.... easy to break off with fingers. I have just put on a fram filter (yes, martinc I know you think they suck) but in another 1k I will tear it apart and compare this may take a while since now I have no licensce and its like 40 Degrees here.

another

inside

this is the bottom of the element this is the only place where when I took the flashlight to it had a translucent glow, maybe fine clutch particulate????

Put the filter in a clean container - like a 1lb coffe can with clean solvent/gas to rinse out the trapped material and then run the slurry thru a coffee strainer. What you should have left is the particulate you need to look closer at. wave clean magnet about a 1/8" off the surface of the flattened coffee filter and then check for ferrous flakes. A small amout of tiny metal flakes is ok - a fingertip full is of concern- a handfull is bad. Aluminium rates the same-but isnt magnetic. If in doubt - change the filter again in 300mi Good Lluck

hehe........ Well,on a side note,when you guys change filters,do you fill them up with oil before install? Just tought you should know the proper way to do it.......

BTW,I"ll make this a sticky till we find out about the crappy FRAM...... lol

Well,on a side note,when you guys change filters,do you fill them up with oil before install? Always prime my filter! find out about the crappy FRAM Fram :ugh

Looks pretty darn good to me dude.No worries mate!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CMRRA13 [B]Always prime my filter! :iamwithst :yesnod :yesnod Me 2, Kinda basic but.......

the fram is just like all the other aftermarket filters on the inside. Only the stock filter has media at the end and not just around the sides like all the rest. i will admit that the 17mm nut on the end of the K&N is pretty handy though. Frequent oil changes with a quality oil are the most important thing. Nice pics.

Originally posted by slutty22 Always used yamaha oil filter and mx4t mobil synthetic since birth. I'm not the expert here but isn't running synthetic during the break in period a bad thing? I've heard it is so abrasion resistant that it doesn't give the piston rings a chance to "seat" against the cylinder walls. I've heard it's best to run standard oil for the first couple thousand and then switch to syn. Although I'm over 11,000 and haven't switched to syn yet. Going to at 12k.

UPDATE ************************************************** After doing some searching on the net I have found 2 very informative sites. Since putting the fram oil filter on my bike it has been started maybe twice and it gets pulled tonight. NO MORE FRAM If you have any questions about oil filters TAKE THE TIME OUT OF YOUR DAY and read the following sites......very informative and very unbiased. ---------------------> http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/oil_filter_study/ <--------------------- AND ----------------------> http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000513;p= <------------------------------------

I read all that and find nothing terribly wrong with Fram other than maybe the author didn't like the construction of it. But does that mean it doesn't do the job? Furthermore, all those articles are about auto filters. How about motorcycle oil filters? They are different. I've got 52,000 miles on my '02 R1 with no engine problems what-so-ever. I've used Fram since the very first oil change (approximately 13 oil changes). I've had no problems whatsoever, and have never had a problem with Fram in the 100,000+ miles I've put on other bikes. Few people, and especially fewer bikes (especially R1's) will ever see anywhere near 50,000 miles. So don't worry about it.

50k t hats insane for an 02

Well,on a side note,when you guys change filters,do you fill them up with oil before install? Just tought you should know the proper way to do it....... do you mean: a) literally pour fresh oil into the filter anthen screwing it on? or do you mean b)putting a small amount of oil around the rubber ring andthen screwing it back on... if you mean (a) what happens if you DONT do that b4 installing your new oil filter? thanks

Originally posted by masonboy do you mean: a) literally pour fresh oil into the filter anthen screwing it on? or do you mean b)putting a small amount of oil around the rubber ring andthen screwing it back on... if you mean (a) what happens if you DONT do that b4 installing your new oil filter? thanks Fill the filter full of oil,wait a couple of seconds,and top off.This way when you start the motor,it does not have to wait for the oil to get from the pan,threw the pickup,then the filter.

How is this bad? (if you dont do that first^^^?) sorry if this qu. sounds stupid

the oil is there on start up.if not you have the engine running for a few seconds with no oil pressure.bearings hate not having oil.

ok gotcha! will do that from now on... just to make sure wouldnt you spill oil all over while putting the filter on if its filled with oil?

If you warm the engine properly before draing the oil, this is less of a worry. But, I prime my filter anyway.

Originally posted by masonboy ok gotcha! will do that from now on... just to make sure wouldnt you spill oil all over while putting the filter on if its filled with oil? :iamwithst I would think oil would spill all over if the filter is filled with oil. It spiils all over when i change my truck filter, and this is after i have drained the pan.

naw. ya put just enough oil in to get the filter element nice and soaked.. Heres what I do, I fill the filter about half way up the turn it on its side letting the oil go through all the litle holes and soaking the element this will use all the oil you have just put in the filter, the I refill it to a littl less than half full and put it on. I find this method to be clean and effective.

Tool I used from harbor freight. 3 3/4" pipe cutter $14. I'm not sure if the metal shreds is from the pipe cutter, but I have a feeling it is from the engine. I don't think this type of pipe cutter makes these kinds of shreds. I may be wrong. Tell me what you guys think. I did this at 500 miles. http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter.jpg http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter1.jpg http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter2.jpg http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter3.jpg http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter4.jpg http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter5.jpg http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter6.jpg http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter7.jpg http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter8.jpg http://members.cox.net/blas1/filter9.jpg

Wow! Well, my opinion is that your pretty safe unless you were abusive to it and punched it in every gear. I think while breaking in your engine the cylinder walls and piston rings need to work out themselves. This enables the oil to stay within the groves in the cylinder walls. There was a really good website that showed this. If you abused it or punched it in every gear from the beggining then your oil probably burnt inbwtween the grooves in the cylinder walls. Damn I wish I knew where that website was..anyone wanna help me out?

im not sure if this is the web site but this site does have some interesting theorys on this...near the end is mentioned that the oil should be changed within the first 20 miles because of the initial wear/piston debris that builds up at first, anyway heres the site: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

nope, not the one but good. The one im talking about had a drawn up cut away of the cylinder walls and the little groves that were made by the factory and the carmilization of the oil...:dunno

hmmm never seen it...would def like to check it out if anyone comes up with it! what is your opinion on using that engine break-in style as on that site? it sounds really risky but he backs it well...im confused on weather to break in factory style and baby it:riding or his style:fire ..:dunno

Oh, I broke this bike in the grandma way. Took the bike to 7500 once for a second at around 125 miles. The rest has always been between 0-7000. Most of my riding was a mixture of freeway and streets. Probably 300 miles on freeway and 200 miles on street. I also took the bike to the canyons twice already (90 miles back and forth x2 = 180 miles) this is my first bike, so I wanted to follow the directions on the manual. I recently did the oil change today at 505 miles exactly. The oil looked clean when it poured out (im talking about draining the oil and unscrewing the oil filter only). No metal chips. But, as soon as I cut the oil filter in half, the metal chips you see on the napkin is what came out. I really don't think it is from my pipe cutter. I have a hacksaw and a chopsaw, but didn't want to use those. I was thinking the pipe cutter will cut the filter clean without adding any metal particles.

this is your first bike you say?

Originally posted by quickshifterGTS this is your first bike you say? Yes, but I learned on my older brother's Gixxer1000 for about 2 or 3 months. Rode it probably 10 times. 4 times into the canyons. I'm a slowpoke hehe (60-70mph in 35-40mph turns, 30-40mph in 20mph turns)... That gives you an idea how much of a newbie I am.

wow i thought i was bad going to an 04 R1 from a gixxer 750 with only 7000 miles of experience! be careful man.. taking corners slow is a good thing, always work on keeping the throtle as smooth as possible...thats one of the most important things i learned geting on the gixxer, the last thing u want is to loop the bike going through a corner when u hit a bump and chop the throttle...man this thread is soon gunna turn into hell with peep giving you a hard time about it being your first bike! but just keep it slow for awhile

you have a yamaha powered mr2?

Well, i've taken the motorcycle riding course (for beginners to get their license). Im very conservative in my riding (ride within my ability). I understand the concepts of throttle control. I understand some of the basic fundamentals of motorcycle riding (read Twist of the Wrist Vol. I and II). I plan on going to a track in the near future. Lastly, I have a 1991 Toyota MR2. The body was designed by Lotus, and purchased by Toyota. Then, Toyota turned to Yamaha to design a turbocharged engine for the car. Our timing belt cover has the Yamaha word molded into it as stock.

sounds like a sick car! have any pics or links for it?

yeah would b good 2c... ;)

Originally posted by quickshifterGTS sounds like a sick car! have any pics or links for it? I was actually selling this on ebay just so I can get my bike. Bids reached $12,200 near the end. I took it off ebay though. I just couldn't do it. http://members.cox.net/blas1/IMG_0618.jpg

Originally posted by zee Oh, I broke this bike in the grandma way. Took the bike to 7500 once for a second at around 125 miles. The rest has always been between 0-7000. Most of my riding was a mixture of freeway and streets. Probably 300 miles on freeway and 200 miles on street. I also took the bike to the canyons twice already (90 miles back and forth x2 = 180 miles) this is my first bike, so I wanted to follow the directions on the manual. I recently did the oil change today at 505 miles exactly. The oil looked clean when it poured out (im talking about draining the oil and unscrewing the oil filter only). No metal chips. But, as soon as I cut the oil filter in half, the metal chips you see on the napkin is what came out. I really don't think it is from my pipe cutter. I have a hacksaw and a chopsaw, but didn't want to use those. I was thinking the pipe cutter will cut the filter clean without adding any metal particles. Glad to see you did a nice breakin on the bike ,as for the metal I have seen it in the oil on the first oil change but I never cut open the filter to look in side, but I will on the 04 now just to see.:D

Originally posted by zee I was actually selling this on ebay just so I can get my bike. Bids reached $12,200 near the end. I took it off ebay though. I just couldn't do it. http://members.cox.net/blas1/IMG_0618.jpg BTW your car is badass.:rock

wow that car looks sweet! lotus kit you said...ive never seen anything that looks like that for the mr2! personally i like the veilside kit for it...nice tho! yeah that would be a hard 1 to give up...when ever you put alot of work into somthing like that its just impossible to let go!

I installed my Scott's filter on the '04 so I could check the same thing, I am going to change my oil at 250 miles and see what the inside of the filter looks like. The Scott's has a built in magnet so by the looks of your filter mine should have plenty of fine metal particles stuck on it. Thanks for the post

Don't worry about your findings in the oil filter, this is just normal. The metal shreds are not from break-in but from manufacturing of your motor. They get washed through the motor on the first few miles and filtered out by the filter. The break-in process generates much finer particles. Still a good optical example why it is not so smart to push it hard on the first miles. And yes, to say it again, i.m.h.o. the only really good point on mototune is the oil change after 20 miles...

Originally posted by Juerg Don't worry about your findings in the oil filter, this is just normal. The metal shreds are not from break-in but from manufacturing of your motor. They get washed through the motor on the first few miles and filtered out by the filter. The break-in process generates much finer particles. Still a good optical example why it is not so smart to push it hard on the first miles. And yes, to say it again, i.m.h.o. the only really good point on mototune is the oil change after 20 miles... Whoa, we actually agree on something. :thumbup

Originally posted by GRH The Scott's has a built in magnet so by the looks of your filter mine should have plenty of fine metal particles stuck on it. Thanks for the post Oh, did you get the one with that new Non-Ferrous Metal Magnet Technology? :crash

quickshifterGTS The very first oil change @ very low miles is the most critical as you mentioned, not 100 or 200m but 20-50m and dump the factory oil then change it again after an additional 200m. BD

Originally posted by quickshifterGTS wow that car looks sweet! lotus kit you said...ive never seen anything that looks like that for the mr2! personally i like the veilside kit for it...nice tho! yeah that would be a hard 1 to give up...when ever you put alot of work into somthing like that its just impossible to let go! No, the kit on it is not a Lotus kit. I'm saying the original "MR2" body design was invented/designed by Lotus. Toyota bought the design from Lotus. The bodykit on my car is a Toyota Racing Development (TRD) Wide Body. Well sorry for posting CAR stuff. I know this is a Motorcycle forum. I remember my instructor at beginner bike school making fun of anything dealing with cars during class. But... I think everyone needs a car to haul larger stuff. It's impossible with a sportbike.

Originally posted by Eyespy Oh, did you get the one with that new Non-Ferrous Metal Magnet Technology? :crash Why yes, I did! Point well made, at least I can see what's in the screen.

is the oil filter the same as any of the older models? -crashtd

Originally posted by crashtd is the oil filter the same as any of the older models? -crashtd Yes

which models? i assume 2003 will do? -crashtd

Originally posted by crashtd which models? i assume 2003 will do? -crashtd I believe all models, I know my Scott's covers 98-03's 2003 definitely, came up in an earlier post that a guy bought a filter to the '03 p/n

How much HP does your car have? One of my buddies has an MR2 and he's got it so modded that I think he's around 450 HP I think? He's been to MR2 rallies and stuff. His MR2 is like the second fastest in the Northeast or something like that.

Zee: Thought you might find this interesting.... I'm from the MR2 camp also... See http://4sale4.tripod.com for pics of my '91T and '91NA, MR2 board name is KillerNSX...

Originally posted by Eman How much HP does your car have? One of my buddies has an MR2 and he's got it so modded that I think he's around 450 HP I think? He's been to MR2 rallies and stuff. His MR2 is like the second fastest in the Northeast or something like that. I've only got 247 hp to the rear wheels at 13psi boost.

Originally posted by martinc hehe........ Well,on a side note,when you guys change filters,do you fill them up with oil before install? Just tought you should know the proper way to do it....... I fill mine up some what... I tried to fill it all the way but the fooking oil spilled when I went to screw it in :lol DUH!

Originally posted by zee Tool I used from harbor freight. 3 3/4" pipe cutter $14. I'm not sure if the metal shreds is from the pipe cutter, but I have a feeling it is from the engine. I don't think this type of pipe cutter makes these kinds of shreds. I may be wrong. Tell me what you guys think. I did this at 500 miles. Damn dude! My oil did not look nothing like that! I did mine just under 500, 465 to be exact. Actually mine still looked pretty new.....is that an issue?? This stuff is too confusing!! I have been following the manual break in also.:fork

It's not the oil, it's the filter. The filter keeps these parts from floating around in the motor, that's why it is there. Priming the filter isn't really critical as far as I know (won't hurt anyway!), at least if the motor just ran before the oil change, but make sure the o-ring is wetted with oil! You can't really fill the filter anyway so there will be a short moment without oil pressure, what is no problem, there is oil in the bearings. Just don't play with the throttle for the first few seconds until the oil pump really has been able to get the oil pressure up. Switch the motor on and let it idle for some seconds. Also important, check the oil level again after the motor has run. If you fill in 2.9l the control window will show to much oil but once the oil filter is full the level will be just right.

Originally posted by Juerg It's not the oil, it's the filter. The filter keeps these parts from floating around in the motor, that's why it is there. Priming the filter isn't really critical as far as I know (won't hurt anyway!), at least if the motor just ran before the oil change, but make sure the o-ring is wetted with oil! You can't really fill the filter anyway so there will be a short moment without oil pressure, what is no problem, there is oil in the bearings. Just don't play with the throttle for the first few seconds until the oil pump really has been able to get the oil pressure up. Switch the motor on and let it idle for some seconds. Also important, check the oil level again after the motor has run. If you fill in 2.9l the control window will show to much oil but once the oil filter is full the level will be just right. So in other words, my filter did a good job???

Sure! The next one should be rather clean however...

*On Topic* You should NEVER run synthetic oil during break in. Not only will the rings NOT seal - the will seal INCORRECTLY and inevitably your motor will burn oil and smoke. It's a really bad thing to do. Run regular old dyno-oil. Don't fool yourself, that's what they are designed for. As for chopping open oil filters with 500 miles on the engine. You are going to have MORE metal particles in the beginning of an engines life than any other time. It's totally normal.

Originally posted by chris_y2k_r1 *On Topic* You should NEVER run synthetic oil during break in. Not only will the rings NOT seal - the will seal INCORRECTLY and inevitably your motor will burn oil and smoke. It's a really bad thing to do. Run regular old dyno-oil. Don't fool yourself, that's what they are designed for. As for chopping open oil filters with 500 miles on the engine. You are going to have MORE metal particles in the beginning of an engines life than any other time. It's totally normal. What is your opinion on semi-synthetic after the first 600 miles? And what if you have no metal shavings at all?? This crap makes me nervous!!! :scared

Ive always ran synthetic in my engine since the first oil change and it broke in just fine and ...dosent smoke or use oil whatsoever....

****************UPDATE************************ These bad boys should come stock..............quality and build is superior...

GOOD STUFF......... SCOTTS IS QUALITY

any idea where i can buy one of those scotts oil filters for an '04 online ?

Originally posted by mvh any idea where i can buy one of those scotts oil filters for an '04 online ? kneedraggers.com has them

So the Scott's oil filters are $108. Can anyone tell me how much of a pain they are to clean? I think it would be worth the money it it's not a biatch to clean every 2K.

seem straight forward enough - just put it in a bath of kerosene or jet fuel, soak it for a while, remove, let it dry, and gently blow air into the inside to remove any remaining particles... most annoying thing about it is removing the locking ring that holds the filter element into the housing, but even that you get used to pretty quick.

tastes like chicken

Slutty22, I heard you say you used synthetic oil since birth on your bike. Keep-up thought synthetic during break-in is bad...he's right. Now you know for your next bike.

its first 20 miles, then change the oil....ok great, but wouldn't you feel like shit if your motor crapped out and you were not covered by factory warranty because the dealer found out you rode the crap out of your new bike? No friggen way I would take this chance on a new $12k bike!

Originally posted by mvh seem straight forward enough - just put it in a bath of kerosene or jet fuel, soak it for a while, remove, let it dry, and gently blow air into the inside to remove any remaining particles... most annoying thing about it is removing the locking ring that holds the filter element into the housing, but even that you get used to pretty quick. what do you do with the kerosene when your finished? and do have do any scrubbing? Or do the oil just floats right off? :confused:

not really any scrubbing involved, as the kero will break down the oil pretty quickly... most of the particles will end up in the kero, but you can give it a bit of a shake and make sure you clean off the magnet as well... just tip the dirty kerosene over a plant you dislike or the neighbor's cat... ermmm, i mean, dispose of it responsibly...

*OFF TOPIC* can you use an auto oil filter for an 02? if so, something like a pure one/puralator?

Originally posted by Mrbrian *OFF TOPIC* can you use an auto oil filter for an 02? if so, something like a pure one/puralator? Sure.............and when you go to the doctor and he says you need.........oooohhhhh lets say a new liver.........just tell him to get one from a cow and you'll do the swap at home...........that will save you big:dollar

Originally posted by r1nmegofast its first 20 miles, then change the oil....ok great, but wouldn't you feel like shit if your motor crapped out and you were not covered by factory warranty because the dealer found out you rode the crap out of your new bike? No friggen way I would take this chance on a new $12k bike! Your so right.......I mean since I now have well over 5000 miles on my bike and it dosent smoke..........dosent slip or drip or leak or use oil in any way...........not to mention it pulls way harder than any 04 Ive been on...........GEEE id better never do that again :2bitchsla

Originally posted by slutty22 Sure.............and when you go to the doctor and he says you need.........oooohhhhh lets say a new liver.........just tell him to get one from a cow and you'll do the swap at home...........that will save you big:dollar wow..thank go your on this board..yer such a big help to us all....:butt :butt :butt :bash :bash

Originally posted by Mrbrian wow..thank go your on this board..yer such a big help to us all....:butt :butt :butt :bash :bash O.K. ..........maybe that was a little much........youve only been here since FEB. so you dont know my since of humor.........what I was trying to state is that your on10 thousand dollar bike OF your engine your oil Is the blood of the engine and your filter is the heart of keeping the blood clean..........For peace of mind sake....you would want the best filter on it possible ...........to answer your original question.........YES and no................Its a bike not a car so you cant put a car oil filter on it...........but fram makes an oil filter and it sells at walmart for 4 dollars............however you could by the scotts for 120 dollars and be done with it.........the scotts can even be used on other same application bikes. ....ie transfereeable to other R1's if you sell yours.........but its your bike and if you feel confertable puttting a 4 dollar oil filter on there than go for it..........That is all.........

Originally posted by slutty22 Sure.............and when you go to the doctor and he says you need.........oooohhhhh lets say a new liver.........just tell him to get one from a cow and you'll do the swap at home...........that will save you big:dollar I got it and thought it was pretty funny! I know cheap bastards like that.

Yeah, I had the scotts filter on my previous two ZX-6R's. Definately the best oil filter you can buy. Worth the money too. :D I just soaked them in degreaser. I love the magnet that picks up the metal particles from the oil too. I will be buying one for my R soon.

Use whatever filter you want.. You guys are talking that you know more shit then the guy asking about the car filter. Most bikes share the same filter as some cars. Buy a good manufacture of the car make and save money on every filter you buy. You think yamaha puts anything special in theirs that makes them better then brand X? (besides fram) Ever wonder who makes Yamaha filters?? I wouldn't doubt if it was a company that you see on stock shelves in auto stores all the time. Judge who you want to be smarter, but be prepaired to be judged back. I have been doing it for years, including my friends, without a single problem and high mileage engines. I've done it on my 2001 r6, my 2001 GSXR-1000, 99 GSXR-750, some other bikes, and will be doing it on my 2001 R1. Quinn

Originally posted by mvh seem straight forward enough - just put it in a bath of kerosene or jet fuel, soak it for a while, remove, let it dry, and gently blow air into the inside to remove any remaining particles... most annoying thing about it is removing the locking ring that holds the filter element into the housing, but even that you get used to pretty quick. check this out and you will trow away your scoots filter and your 100 bucks...... http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html#OilFilters

huh?

Has anyone actually opened up an unused oil filter ??? For all we know it might look like that in the first place..hahahahahahahahaha.

Hey guys, Just a heads up. Purolator PL14610 is great and fits perfectly in my 99 r1. It is bigger than stock (good) and has way more filtering material.....I am sure that it fits other years also. Got it at Pep Boys for $6. The check valve has the same spring rate :thumbup

Originally posted by r1armadillo So the Scott's oil filters are $108. Can anyone tell me how much of a pain they are to clean? I think it would be worth the money it it's not a biatch to clean every 2K. Do not get Scotts...it is not a good filter and not worth it. It cost about 108 and that money will get you about 18 oil filter from pep boys at 6$ a pop. If you change your oil filter every 3000 miles that is approximately 54000 miles. Besides that I really doubt that the mesh screen inside scotts will filter as well as a regular paper filter....just my opinion before you start flaming....

what you can do is that you make sure that the bike is hot to get all the oil out the pan and when you put the new filter on pull choke and crank it for a few seconds which then before the engine fires delivers enough oil to lubricate all the internals

After reading through all five pages here, I'll say this: If I was to open my old oil filters(lets hope I never get THAT anal retentive) and Not find metallic particles I'd be extremely worried. That is what filters are supposed to do. Every engine will have junk, metallic and otherwise, running around in the crankcases. It is the filter's job to contain them and keep them from recirculating around the engine. The engine will even create more as it is used. In theory, there will be a diminishing amount created as time goes by, and then it will start increasing again as the motor nears the end of its life. I'm shocked to hear what is being said of Fram filters. For the last 30 years I have not used anything else and have had no problems. I presently have a Ford van with 160,000 miles and the previous van was sold to with 300,000 miles to a friend who then put another 100,000 on it before it finally fell apart from rust. I've had Frams on Hondas, Jaguars , Jeep, Ford vans, Crown Victorias, Mazdas Rotaries, regular Mazdas, Dodge, boats, ... WOW. I wonder if they've gone to hell recently, or if the whole test criteria is not indicative of actual need/performance of the filters? I must research this further. The Yamahas have always had Yamaha filters.

I have 200 miles on my R1 and hurt my back so I am laid up. I would like to know if the R1 has a magnet on the oil drain plug? If not, where can I get one when I change the oil after my recovery?

What up ladies. Here is a cool website that deals with all oil & filter related questions. Warning! There are some serious OCD types on there...lol Be sure to check out the forums. www.bobistheoilguy.com

Originally posted by johneracer Hey guys, Just a heads up. Purolator PL14610 is great and fits perfectly in my 99 r1. It is bigger than stock (good) and has way more filtering material.....I am sure that it fits other years also. Got it at Pep Boys for $6. The check valve has the same spring rate :thumbup The PureOne has the best synthetic media, and lots of it. It's much longer than stock hence more surface area = better flow. And it's only $6. But price isn't important to me, I just want the best filter and the PureOne is it.

Dont think the R1 has a magnetic drain but you can generally get them at any auto parts store. Take it in w/you or find out the exact size first.

I use a Filter Mag. http://www.filtermag.com/

I smashed my R1 when i got the thing. i cracked up near red line wheelies from the dealer driveway to the house. this is a darn good way to break in your motor. this is how i broke in my 02 gsxr motor and with a slip on yoshi tri oval, a K&N filter, and a remap from a yosh box direct plug in to bypass the need for a Power Commander, it pulled a 162 on the dyno. and on my CBR1000rr i killed it and i have only a slip on akro and it pulls harder than my buddies cbr that he babied for the first 1000. My R1 feels like my friends R1 with a full system, air filter, and PC3. my R1 is bone stock, i just ordered my racing baffles from vance and hines so soon i will rumble nice and hard. I truly recomend a smashing hard "break-in", works wonders for power.

does the pureone filter pl14610 fit 04+ r1's?? so does all r1 use the same filters?

check into a scotts filter for indy superbikes.com

my friend has a 2001 R1 in my garage with 57k miles,it has been ragged since day one,still going strong....

Originally posted by Shadow R One I fill mine up some what... I tried to fill it all the way but the fooking oil spilled when I went to screw it in :lol DUH! :iamwithst Never have i seen anywhere in engineering manuals in the UK that states that you should fill an oil filter before putting it on your bike!!!! And as above if you do the oil just goes everywhere when you screw it on... I think your just thinking that your going to damage your engine by running a dry filter..... not so!!!!! what do you think happens when your bike is static for some time say on a unlevel standing.... Everyone knows that oil needs to smeared on the o-ring prior to fitting, but i think its ludicrous that you need to fill the oil filter on installation. COBBLERS!!!!!!! :lol :lol :lol :lol

SLUTTY ARE YOU REALLY INBRED???

Originally posted by AmpliFyre does the pureone filter pl14610 fit 04+ r1's?? so does all r1 use the same filters? yes! imo it's the best filter..period! synthetic media that filters down to 5 microns, extra long for better flow at high rpm. and it's only $6 at pep boys. I've been using it for over 6 years

Originally posted by slutty Ok here are pics of inside the filter and element. Bike has 5000 miles post removel of filter, oil and filter has been changed 5 times by the book break in and every 1000 miles therafter. Always used yamaha oil filter and mx4t mobil synthetic since birth. I assume this is what it should look like. I took a flashlight to it and seen no metalic flakes. the element material did however seem rather brittle.... easy to break off with fingers. I have just put on a fram filter (yes, martinc I know you think they suck) but in another 1k I will tear it apart and compare this may take a while since now I have no licensce and its like 40 Degrees here. Wouldn't it better to run a wix or hastings filter? That's all I run in my vehicals. Just wondering?

Just read this thread. FYI.. The track I ride at allows every type of oil filter besides FRAM. There have been multiple instances of filters blowing off of bikes at high speeds. = oil on track and multiple bike pile ups. Only happened with FRAM. Hence the Ban. Im sure FRAM works great in your VAN/TRUCK. Those arent Reving at 14K RPM. 2nd, I have had bikes rebuilt and major overhauls performed by proven Yamaha race mechanics and they told me the break in period is approx 1 tank of gas. After that it is good to go. I would have to have someone else baby my bike for me if I went through the extensive break in period some of you guys do. LED WRIST. I just bought an 05 R1 and put 3K miles on it after having it three months. Bought it used so no break in. But I just bought oil for it this weekend and filter (Yamaha). Hence reading this thread. I did not get a manual with the bike. Does anyone know how many quarts I need to add when doing an oil/Filter change. I am using MOTUL Full synthetic. I bought 4 quarts. Please respond, I want to get this done tomorrow. Thanks.

2.9 Liters or 3.07 quarts oil without oil filter replacement and 3.1 liters or 3.28 quarts oil with oil filter change

Originally posted by LDHR1 the fram is just like all the other aftermarket filters on the inside. Only the stock filter has media at the end and not just around the sides like all the rest. i will admit that the 17mm nut on the end of the K&N is pretty handy though. Frequent oil changes with a quality oil are the most important thing. Nice pics. Also the K&n filter has a hole drilled threw the 17 mm nut to strap down

Hi Everyone I Am New To The Oil Change On My R1 2006. My Bike Has Only 400 Miles And I Was Wondering What Kind Of Oil Should I Use And What Kind Of Filter And Where Should I Buy Them? I Want The Best In The Market For My Bike. Another Thing Is Should I Start Using Synthetic Or Its Bad For Now? Thanks

I heard it wasnt a good idea to run full synthetic on a new bike. Once it has around 3K miles on it its ok. Just by a Yamaha filter from your dealer (like $4 or $6) I dont remember exactly. Then use Motul 50% synthetic. This is a great oil. I know it seems silly, but I feel like it added a pony or two changing to the Motul. Im not sure what oil was in the bike when I got it. But it shifts so smooth now and is a little more responsive. Good luck. THanks for the tip for the oil amount (earlier post). I just used the window anyways. I also primed the oil filter. This was a non-issue. The filter soaks in all the oil so it wasnt messy at all. Make sure to start your bike when the new oil reaches the window line, dont rev it though. Then kill it and re-check your oil line. You will probably need to add a bit more once the oil filter fills all the way up with oil. Good luck. MOTUL rocks!

I have never primed a filter. It's not a bad idea, but totally unneeded. When is the last time anyone primed a car's oil filter that works at a shop or oil change shop? Never. Do the cars die on startup? what keeps the engine safe during the start up is the oil clinging to the metal. You would be shocked to see how long a motor will run with no oil in it. Like I said not a bad idea at all, but don't think that if you don't prime it you are hurting your baby, because you are not.

I should mention I have an 00 R1 with 56k on it, been using Wix oil filters and Mobile 1 car oil in it for as long as I can remember. I would never use a fram filter on anything I own. They are made to be cheap and sell to walmart, and thats what they are, cheap. their filter media is as good as anything else out there, but the build quality is not great and there have been failures reported, and I myself have seen a defective new out of the box Fram filter.

I should mention I have an 00 R1 with 56k on it, been using Wix oil filters and Mobile 1 car oil in it for as long as I can remember. I would never use a fram filter on anything I own. They are made to be cheap and sell to walmart, and thats what they are, cheap. their filter media is as good as anything else out there, but the build quality is not great and there have been failures reported, and I myself have seen a defective new out of the box Fram filter. Well, to liven up an old thread..... You are correct on the quality of construction on a Fram, nothing more than terrible. But, when it comes to the Media on a Fram, it is Not near as good as anything out there. They filter between 35 and 40 Micron Nominal... The human eye can see down to about 40 Micron.. A WIX will filter about 15 Micron @ 80% Efficiency. An AMSOIL EA Series is 15 Micron Absolute and is the best filter you can buy. It also tested very well in particles from 5-15 Micron. Tests show that 65% of Engine Wear caused by Dirt, are caused by particles in the 5-25 Micron Range. For a High Revving Bike that is used hard most of the time or tracked though, I would recommend the WIX Filter as it will not go into By-Pass Mode as easily. Doc

I should mention I have an 00 R1 with 56k on it, been using Wix oil filters and Mobile 1 car oil in it for as long as I can remember. I would never use a fram filter on anything I own. They are made to be cheap and sell to walmart, and thats what they are, cheap. their filter media is as good as anything else out there, but the build quality is not great and there have been failures reported, and I myself have seen a defective new out of the box Fram filter. Got a site I can buy that from?

Parker........ http://www.wixfilters.com/

Parker........ http://www.wixfilters.com/ Maybe I'm retarded or something, which is most likely the case, but that site doesn't want to let me buy anything.

Maybe I'm retarded or something, which is most likely the case, but that site doesn't want to let me buy anything. It does have a " where to buy " tab on the top of the page

I have never primed a filter. It's not a bad idea, but totally unneeded. When is the last time anyone primed a car's oil filter that works at a shop or oil change shop? Never. Do the cars die on startup? what keeps the engine safe during the start up is the oil clinging to the metal. You would be shocked to see how long a motor will run with no oil in it. Like I said not a bad idea at all, but don't think that if you don't prime it you are hurting your baby, because you are not. I don't agree with this statement at all. I would say it's a pretty massive jump to the conclusion you are making. Just because an engine doesn't die on startup, no damage is being done? Give me a break. Sure, the oil film on the cylinder walls and cam lobes will protect fine for a few seconds while the filter primes and oil pressure builds, but the main and rod bearings need oil pressure to be bearings. If you have a choice on whether to cause a delay in oil pressure or spend 10 seconds to soak the filter media first, and you choose not to... well, I'd say you're a jack ass :crash

I don't agree with it nor does the Filter Manufacturers Association which recommends filling the filter with fresh oil.... The less "No Lube" Time the better. Bob, ADG

I agree with always priming the filter. Some cars have upside down filters or sideways and this makes that hard/impossible. But whenever you can, do it. Why starve the engine for any amount of time?? The car will not die on start up, but there will be more metal to metal wear during that period. It is a simple thing to do and does not take any extra time. Someone also mentioned that oil change places don't do this. One more reason to do it yourself!! Tim

priming is unnecessary......i've worked on engines larger then u can dream and putting out enough torque to turn the world backwards...... not priming the filter will do absolutely nothing to a 1000cc engine.....once you dont rev it up damage wont occur for minutes, because the engine is under no load, hence temperatures are not elevated and cannot scorch the oil on the liner....the bearings will still have oil trapped in them until new oil is supplied......again only if heat or load is present will damage occur......... since bike engines have a relatively short stroke, maximum piston speed at idle is far less than on car engines and there is less chance of scraping away the oil adhered to the liner......i'm not saying dont prime your filter, and i'm not say u should........but doing it in my opinion and experience will cause absolutely no damage.

priming is unnecessary......i've worked on engines larger then u can dream and putting out enough torque to turn the world backwards...... not priming the filter will do absolutely nothing to a 1000cc engine.....once you dont rev it up damage wont occur for minutes, because the engine is under no load, hence temperatures are not elevated and cannot scorch the oil on the liner....the bearings will still have oil trapped in them until new oil is supplied......again only if heat or load is present will damage occur......... since bike engines have a relatively short stroke, maximum piston speed at idle is far less than on car engines and there is less chance of scraping away the oil adhered to the liner......i'm not saying dont prime your filter, and i'm not say u should........but doing it in my opinion and experience will cause absolutely no damage. The Filter Manufacturers Association Does not agree with you and niether do I. Neither of us have any benefit to recommending filling a filter if possible. Even on my bike where the filter is mounted horizontally, I get as much oil in it as possible. There are a few vehicles where this is not possible as the filter is inverted and if it were mine, I would put a filter relocation kit on it. Doc

^^^you have your right to disagree and i respect that.....but oil adheres to exposed metal, especially cylinder liners that have been broken...... so let me ask you this, when u park your bike or car, and then in about two or three days you return, and just turn the key....do you honestly think there is oil in the filter......by my experience from doing oil changes after resting a car overnight, there is no significant amount of oil remaining in the filter....so running a bike and then draining the oil, changing the filter and refilling and then starting 25 minutes later is still going to leave oil in most of the passages and hence no damage........only time i would recommend priming a filter is after an engine rebuild, when you are sure there is absolutely no oil in the engine............

^^^you have your right to disagree and i respect that.....but oil adheres to exposed metal, especially cylinder liners that have been broken...... so let me ask you this, when u park your bike or car, and then in about two or three days you return, and just turn the key....do you honestly think there is oil in the filter......by my experience from doing oil changes after resting a car overnight, there is no significant amount of oil remaining in the filter....so running a bike and then draining the oil, changing the filter and refilling and then starting 25 minutes later is still going to leave oil in most of the passages and hence no damage........only time i would recommend priming a filter is after an engine rebuild, when you are sure there is absolutely no oil in the engine............ It is not just me that disagrees with you, but an entire Manufacturing Association, which has this available in print and online. Many filters have an Anti-Drain Back valve which keeps oil in the oil passages for start-ups where necessary or there may be a check valve in the filter mount. You need to oil the bearings as fast as possible which is your Boundary Lubrication stopping contact of the cams, rods and crank with the bearings. Seconds mean a lot of miles/hours on an engine. Ever start a Hydraulic Tappet engine and hear lifter rattle after just hours or overnight of not running? You have a problem with an Anti-Drain Back Valve. Just like putting an empty filter on. I have especially seen the problem when people will look at the diameter of a filters O-Ring and thread to see if they match. Not knowing enough to see if they have or need an Anti-Drain Back valve, pressure relief setting, flow ratings or even burst strength of the can and install it in the wrong application... They deserve the problems they will encounter... You can put a filter from a GMC Dura-Max on a Big Block Chevy, but can you put a Big Block Chevy Filter on a Dura-Max ? Absolutely Not.. By putting a filter on an engine that has not been filled, you ARE causing unnecessary wear and this has been proven in tests. Not by someone thinking they have done it hundreds of times with no problems and have no test ata to back it up. Nothing is perfect but you try to keep as much oil in the system as possible. So.... In your professional opinion, all oils adhere to the metal surfaces t provide lubrication ??.. That is what you said, correct ? Doc

can you point me in the direction of these tests and their results? i understand that seconds without oil cause wear, but i will only see this in a completely dry engine(newly rebuilt) but, in a semi-warm engine where no load is present and a by-pass v/v filter installed , oil takes moments to get to the engine passages..... personally, i see nothing wrong with wetting a filter element to speed up the process, but from an engineering standpoint, i cant see how an engine which that has been drained 1/2 hour before with oil still in its bearings and passages undergo increased wear. i know this is a bike forum, but we had a Cockrell generator oil sump run dry, and the only problem we got was a high temperature alarm (5 degrees C above normal) for one of the piston bearings........it took about 2 minutes for this to happen, and thats on a turbocharged engine with 16 liters of displacement per cylinder, running under full load.....so can u look at that and say i'm wrong to say that a few seconds off load on a liter bike's engine without oil is going to do substantial damage to it????? i never said ALL oils adhere to metals......i'm not that ignorant.

wow i think every body in this post is right to a point.......... but you slaped out the bucks to buy your bike.... so it complety up to you how you do your oil filter change on your bike... so if you want to prime your filter then by all means do so its your bike!!!! if you dont then thats ok too its your bike!!!!! and by the way.... the way most of us ride the damn things i would bet that we will blow the engine somkin our buds gsxz or wad it up trying to out corner out buds cbr-rr or get tired of the damn thing and sell it to get the new year because how out dated our bike became in the last 12months and wouldnt dare to be seen on that old heavy under powered non turning turd!!! so in conclusion i think the most inportant thing we need to rember when changing our oil is to make dame sure you tightin the drain plug !!!!!!!!!!!

Damnit! I get sucked into an oil thread on every board that I am on. Going back to the top, the dissected filter looked absolutely normal and your second oil change will more than likely have much less particles and subsequent ones will be clean. I have chopped a few filters in my day...not out of parannoia...but out of sheer curiosity. A bike is nothing more than a REGULAR motor with wheels. No magic, and no tricks. Use good oil and a good filter of your choice combined with routine oil,changes and your bike will be fine. Unless you use a synthetic oil like Royal Purple which is loaded up with Moly to the max, your garden variety Mobile One car synthetic or Rotella synthetic is good stuff and will not make your clutch slip. Good stuff and available at your local auto part store. I have never primed a filter prior to installation. Although it is probably a good practice, I think that shit will be too messy so I will stick to the tried and true dry method for the last 20 years. It is a f...king bitch keeping oil off of my header by just changing the oil on this bike so I do not want to add extra oil spill potential to clean up. Ill take my chances.

I will disagree on the oils mentioned... Royal Purple is not a very good oil as it shears back a full Viscosity Grade in the First Sequence of a 3 Sequence ASTM Tests. Although some Diesel oils will work, most Motorcycle oils have other additives and higher ZDDP which is for cam wear. Personally, a few extra dollars for the right oil and a Premium Filter are cheap insurance.. Not having to worry about an $8000.00 engine, Priceless. Mobil 1 Automotive oil is showing to cause some clutch problems. Sometimes rearing their head right away and sometime a bit later or when changing to another oil. It is not designed to run in a wet clutch application. Regardless of Brand, Synthetic or petroleum, I Always recommend a Motorcycle Specific oil with a JASO MA Rating, Better yet, MA 2, but never MB. M/C Oil Tests http://www.bestoil4you.com/files/g2156MCoilStudy.pdf Bob

I will disagree on the oils mentioned... Royal Purple is not a very good oil as it shears back a full Viscosity Grade in the First Sequence of a 3 Sequence ASTM Tests. Although some Diesel oils will work, most Motorcycle oils have other additives and higher ZDDP which is for cam wear. Personally, a few extra dollars for the right oil and a Premium Filter are cheap insurance.. Not having to worry about an $8000.00 engine, Priceless. Mobil 1 Automotive oil is showing to cause some clutch problems. Sometimes rearing their head right away and sometime a bit later or when changing to another oil. It is not designed to run in a wet clutch application. Regardless of Brand, Synthetic or petroleum, I Always recommend a Motorcycle Specific oil with a JASO MA Rating, Better yet, MA 2, but never MB. M/C Oil Tests http://www.bestoil4you.com/files/g2156MCoilStudy.pdf Bob I said that Royal Purple is a turd. Too much moly friction modifier and has the potential to cause clutch slippage. I call poo poo on the Mobil 1 and would love to see verifiable proof of causing issues. I have run that oil in 3 bikes, a sport quad with a clutch, and a 4x4 with a centrifical clutch. That was a Yamamha Kodiak and that really does not count in this other than the fact that the motor never went boom. None of my bikes slip, slipped, or ever did anything other than run sweet. Now that peace of mind thing. I have it and do not worry about it because I change my oil and filters frequently and that is the real key here. Also, several years back, Sport Rider Magazine did a pretty comprehensive oil analysis where they did chemical analysis of many oils. Guess what, Mobil One was almost identical to Honda Synthetic Oil in terms of chemical make up and additives (friction modifiers). Now, with all of that said, I switched to Rotella Synthetic a couple of years back to save even a couple of more bucks. Still no boom and still no worries here! :) If and when my engine blows up or my clutch slips from anything other than beating the shit out of it, I will eat the first piece of crow pie here, post it up, and rebuild the motor. Then, I will put good old Rotella back in and try once again! :) One other thing...If Amsoil was available at Walmart, I would probably run it, but I refuse to get horse f...ed by a motorcycle dealership. I am not referring to you and Amsoil, but the dealership and their oil brand.

I said that Royal Purple is a turd. Too much moly friction modifier and has the potential to cause clutch slippage. Sorry, not the way I took it I call poo poo on the Mobil 1 and would love to see verifiable proof of causing issues. I have run that oil in 3 bikes, a sport quad with a clutch, and a 4x4 with a centrifical clutch. That was a Yamamha Kodiak and that really does not count in this other than the fact that the motor never went boom. None of my bikes slip, slipped, or ever did anything other than run sweet. Now that peace of mind thing. I have it and do not worry about it because I change my oil and filters frequently and that is the real key here. For some reason, we are seeing it in Suzuki's, Vic's and Triumphs more than anything... Also, M-1 has recently changed their formulation on the auto oils which is shown in GC Oil Analysis.. I never said anything would go boom... Where oils use to change every 4-5 years, it is months now. Also, several years back, Sport Rider Magazine did a pretty comprehensive oil analysis where they did chemical analysis of many oils. Guess what, Mobil One was almost identical to Honda Synthetic Oil in terms of chemical make up and additives (friction modifiers). Now, with all of that said, I switched to Rotella Synthetic a couple of years back to save even a couple of more bucks. Still no boom and still no worries here! :) If and when my engine blows up or my clutch slips from anything other than beating the shit out of it, I will eat the first piece of crow pie here, post it up, and rebuild the motor. Then, I will put good old Rotella back in and try once again! :) I am familiar with the Sport Rider article... The same article said "AMSOIL performed as stated".. Again, oils are changing faster these days... One of the additives that has been reduced or removed in oil that is critical is ZDDP , is the anti-wear protection for flat tappet or bucket type lifters which is what most bikes have. Also, Most M/C OEM's specify an oil that carries an SG/SH spec'd oil which IS NOT automatically superceded by an SL SM or whatever.. One other thing...If Amsoil was available at Walmart, I would probably run it, but I refuse to get horse f...ed by a motorcycle dealership. I am not referring to you and Amsoil, but the dealership and their oil brand. We sell to you at what Wal-Mart would pay for it... The only advantage is that they would buy enough to get free freight... but, you have that capability as well. Wal-Mart contacted AMSOIL several years back wanting to purchase product. They were to be directed to a Dealer. They said "We're Wal-Mart, we don't buy through Dealers, we buy direct" The answer... "We're AMSOIL, we don't sell direct.

We sell to you at what Wal-Mart would pay for it... The only advantage is that they would buy enough to get free freight... but, you have that capability as well. Wal-Mart contacted AMSOIL several years back wanting to purchase product. They were to be directed to a Dealer. They said "We're Wal-Mart, we don't buy through Dealers, we buy direct" The answer... "We're AMSOIL, we don't sell direct. You are all right in my book. A damn salesman but you are all right.:)

You are all right in my book. A damn salesman but you are all right.:) BTW, are you interested in a (i hate stickers) sticker or a (You are all right in my book. A damn salesman but you are all right) sticker? :lol

BTW, are you interested in a (i hate stickers) sticker or a (You are all right in my book. A damn salesman but you are all right) sticker? :lol IF...I were to place a sticker on my bike it would be more along the lines of: Busa's are turds! With that said, not here, not ever! Nice try though! :) Just so you understand the name. I laugh at people who have blinged out bikes and leave tank warning stickers on thier tanks and swingarms. Take a look around...they are everywhere. Not only that, I like a clean look. My R1 has half of the 09 graphic removed from the fairings and both Yamaha ads on my lowers are gone. Again, a nice clean look is the one for me. If I ever change my mind, I know who to call! :rock

You are all right in my book. A damn salesman but you are all right.:) Just remember, Virtually every place you buy stuff from, has a salesman behind the scenes to sell them that stuff... Even Wal-Mart.. No salesman, no Merchandise.. Bob

Just remember, Virtually every place you buy stuff from, has a salesman behind the scenes to sell them that stuff... Even Wal-Mart.. No salesman, no Merchandise.. Bob You get an "A" for effort! I hate to bust your bubble but I am in sales as well! I know a little about it! :) Meet me outside or Walmart on FM 1960 in Houston and I will buy some of your Amsoil! :rock Saying you willl ship to me does not count becasue I know that is the next thing! :) Or better yet, meet me in the parking lot of the Yamaha Dealer on 1960 so I can moon the greedy bastards when I buy something else!

You get an "A" for effort! I hate to bust your bubble but I am in sales as well! I know a little about it! :) Meet me outside or Walmart on FM 1960 in Houston and I will buy some of your Amsoil! :rock Saying you willl ship to me does not count becasue I know that is the next thing! :) Or better yet, meet me in the parking lot of the Yamaha Dealer on 1960 so I can moon the greedy bastards when I buy something else! You are not busting anything.... Sales people are necessary in today's world and are in almost every business.. Meet me outside my house in Maryville TN.... you will still get charged freight.

You are not busting anything.... Sales people are necessary in today's world and are in almost every business.. Meet me outside my house in Maryville TN.... you will still get charged freight. Now that made me laugh out loud! Thank you for that! Touche! :)

You are not busting anything.... Sales people are necessary in today's world and are in almost every business.. Meet me outside my house in Maryville TN.... you will still get charged freight. Check your PM. After all that Amsoil, Im trying to be a customer!:)

Check your PM. After all that Amsoil, Im trying to be a customer!:) Got it.... Sheeesh... it is the weekend you know ! LOL Seriously, Thanks Bob

I read all that and find nothing terribly wrong with Fram other than maybe the author didn't like the construction of it. But does that mean it doesn't do the job? Furthermore, all those articles are about auto filters. How about motorcycle oil filters? They are different. I've got 52,000 miles on my '02 R1 with no engine problems what-so-ever. I've used Fram since the very first oil change (approximately 13 oil changes). I've had no problems whatsoever, and have never had a problem with Fram in the 100,000+ miles I've put on other bikes. Few people, and especially fewer bikes (especially R1's) will ever see anywhere near 50,000 miles. So don't worry about it. ye mine has 65k, its just that people tend to sell and upgrade so often on bikes, u really dont hear about older bikes and high millage mine runs fine, no problems what soever, except for a leaky gasket on the bottom of the oilpan, but that aint nuthing much.