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Bad News Regarding my 2008 R1...engine failure

23K views 102 replies 39 participants last post by  juiced gt 
#1 ·
Hey all...I need some help/advice.

I brought my '08 R1 (only ~3,000 miles on bike) to the dealer about 4 weeks ago so they could check a knocking sound that I thought might be the stuck valve/valve guide problem that others have experienced with the R1. I started hearing what I assumed was louder than normal valve ticking the last 200 miles before the knocking started. I also called Yamaha Customer Service to register this issue before seeing the dealer. The dealer got back to me about 2 weeks ago and said they think the problem is the cam chain tensioner which they ordered and replaced and told me it would cost me ~$4-500 out of pocket. Yesterday, they called to say they re-assembled the bike and started it up but the knocking is still there. They spoke on the phone with a Yamaha tech rep and now they suspect I spun a main bearing on the crankshaft.

I changed oil and filter myself at 400, 800, 1,300, 2,000 and again recently at 2,9xx miles when I first noticed the knock. I have 3 bikes and only ride on weekends so I made it a point to change oil before recommended maintenance intervals and at least annually. The bike is garage kept in a dry environment and stable temperatures. I used Rotella Triple Protection 15W40 dino (API CJ-4/SM, JASO MA) and a Purolator 'Pure One' PL14612 filter at each change. This oil meets the standard specified in the owner's manual and scores highly in all used oil lab test results that I've researched.

The Yamaha rep told the dealer that the PL14612 oil filter is a "car" filter and probably caused oil-starvation leading to the engine failure and thus Yamaha won't pay for the repair. I got oil/oil filter recommendations on this forum and other sources like calci.com...others seem to be using this oil and filter for many miles without engine failures. Calci.com gave good feedback on both the Rotella and PL14612 for motorcyles.

The dealer says they have to pull/breakdown the engine for the repair and the cost can be high. I've asked the dealer to give me a best and worst case scenario for cost of parts and labor. I also asked the dealer to wait a week while I check-in with Forum members. It's hard to believe this engine should have failed at just under 3K miles with the oil changes that I did. The bike was undergoing a progressive break-in and never was over 8-9K RPMs to date. I've since read that the by-pass pressure on the PL14612 is ~14-18 PSI, and that motorcycles typically are designed for an oil filter with 8-11 PSI bypass pressure. Would that small difference in by-pass pressure have caused this type of failure? I can't imagine that the by-pass would have even come into play on a relatively clean filter with such low mileage.

So what advice can you offer me? Is Yamaha giving me the corporate run-around? Should I defend the use of the PL14612 and push harder for Yamaha Corp to pay for repairs? Also, if indeed oil starvation caused a main bearing failure, what other potential damage could have been done to the engine/tranny? The dealer drove the bike and said the tranny seems fine. Is it worth fixing if I have to pay for repairs out-of-pocket, or should I eat the loss and sell the bike for parts?

I really like the bike. I was hoping to ride it more, especially for work commutes and pleasure. I got that sick feeling in my gut...

Advice appreciated
 
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#52 ·
Ok, I'm late to the party gents, so sorry to ask a silly question but-
I looked at my build date- 02/07- so am I pretty much guaranteed to have this problem? Haven't had it apart to check, just wanna be prepared for what awaits me.
 
#78 ·
I use Wix oil filters on everything.

I used to use K & N in my cars until I started noticing some weird things. I liked them because of the grip on them. In my Lincoln LS v8 I would get low oil pressure at idle at stop lights, causing my oil light to come on. On my 94 trans am I noticed low oil pressure at idle, more then 10psi per 1000 but low enough to say "that aint right". Got rid of the K and N and both problems went away, Ive used wix in every motorcycle Ive owned from a seca 2 to my R1, I always change out any filter on a new car for a wix as well. I do not know about K&N's performance line, but what I dealt with from there other line I wont touch one. Guy I knew had an RX7 that blew up, he pulled the engine to do a v8 swap and of course sitting nice and pretty is an orange k&n oil filter.

I use rotella/delvac in all the bikes ive owned apart from the CB1000, its got mobil MX4T since 500miles.

I think its bullshit that yamaha wont cover this, I think OP has every right to say "spin a oem filter on it befor it goes in" or whatever. Yamaha should pay for every r1 that comes in with that problem because they failed to make something that would last. Having a customer pay upwards of 5000 to take the engine apart and rebuild the head is absurd. I ride a 2003 R1, I use wix and rotella...It hasnt broken. MANY people ride yamaha bikes and use oil other then yamalube and filters other then yamaha OEM and do not have issues. Why should a 2006/07 owner get put out like this just because they own a 2007 and do not use what yamaha wants them to use. When a car has a recall it doesnt matter what filter or oil is in the thing when it pulls in, they fix it because thats the right thing to do.
 
#55 · (Edited)
yup using Rotella T6 and KN

 
#57 ·
Hey all,

Thanks to all for your feedback and help.

I have an update on my R1. I went to the dealer last Sat to pick-up my bike so I can have a look at the valves myself, and take the bike to an indy with some experience with these motors. I was told earlier that week that the bike was re-assembled and ready for pick-up. It was not re-assembled when I got there and I was told I’d have to wait 2 hours. Lack of communication at the dealership cost me time. Going back today to get my bike.

Spoke with the owner of the dealership last Saturday. He is a former mechanic. He said they were unable to pin-point the problem and suggested they start tearing down the bike to find it. He said they would check everything on their way down to the crank and main bearings. He said the problem was obviously not the cam-chain tensioner and said he thinks it was installed and then removed by his shop, and I will only be charged for the 3 hours of diagnostic that I initially agreed to. The dealer said the valves/valve guides look fine but couldn’t tell me anything about compression test results when I asked. The dealer said he thinks I have a light knock, high and on right side of the motor…probably not main bearings, but can’t be sure until the teardown. Worst case scenario…complete rebuild replacing all bearings/seals and new crankshaft if needed…$3,200-3,300 out the door. He said the crank is probably OK so that would save $700 for a new crank, however the original crank might need some journal work too.

Just to remind everyone…Yamaha told dealer my problem is probably a main bearing failure, probably resulting from the use of the Purolator Pure One PL (car) filter. Too many “probaby’s”…I’m not buying that yet! Too many R1/sportbike owners here and on other forums have used this filter without problems…the calci.com site recommends the Pure One PL line for bikes. Furthermore, no one, even critics of this filter, are able to produce any independent testing/comparison of the oil flow rate/pressure drop through the PL filter I used, and the OEM filter. I would love to see some real data for both filters compared side-by-side, and see flow rates/pressure drops results before and after these filters, at conditions (oil pump pressures) that replicate various RPMs in the R1 motor. Any takers?? There are also claims here and elsewhere that even Purolator recommends their ML line of filters for motorcycles. Then I read that Purolator’s ML line is actually made overseas by another company and is inferior in quality to the PL Pure One filters….and it is likely that Purolator’s warnings for PL filter use in MCs is simply a marketing ploy to prevent competition between their PL and ML filters. Right now, I tend to believe R1 owners who have used this filter without problems.

Bottom line…The dealer are nice people but I expect when push comes to shove they will ultimately back Yamaha and not me…it’s their bread n butter. Will they be honest during the re-build if they find the problem is actually a Yamaha issue/defect?..., or simply tell me “yup, it was the main bearings!” and you owe us $$$. And what about Yamaha? Would it be the first time in history a manufacturer realized they might have a problem, and then launched a damage-control campaign where Customer Service institutes various levels of push-back to frustrate owners into paying out-of-pocket for these types of issues?? Especially in this economy??!!

All good questions for which I do not yet have firm answers…

My plan: 1) Look at the valves myself and do compression tests per the advice of forum member to rule-out the valve problem. 2) Take the bike to an independent mechanic with lots of experience rebuilding these motors…let indy have a listen and tell me what they think is the problem before starting a rebuild. I know for a fact mechanics with lots of experience repairing a particular motor have learned the abnormal engine sounds representative of a specific problems, and can do a better job at pin-pointing the cause of problems during diagnosis. I don’t think the dealer is able to do this for whatever reason.

In summary,

Anyone with the oil filter testing results mentioned above??

Can anyone give me the name of an experienced indy mechanic in my area? I live about 45 minutes north of Philadelphia off of I-95.

I hope this saga helps other R1 owners. If this ends up looking like a Yamaha problem...I will have a 2008 R1 -and- a 2010 Raider S for sale...and will never speak the words Yamaha or buy a Yamaha product again...

Thanks all…

Regards
 
#60 ·
i dont think it was the yamaha...if ur cheap oil and filter created a oil issue that is ur fault! if it is a component inside the motor u will find it..im goin thru my motor right now..people said my cct all the way to spun bearings....i did the work myself took bout 3 hrs to diagnois and found a broke cam chain guide...easy fix..$32 putting everything back together has been a pita w breaking numerous bolts in the head...but w 60K what should i expect..lol
 
#59 ·
my 04 did the same thing. 2000 miles. spun the #1 main bearing. it was out of warranty and yamaha paid for the parts but i paid the labor. if i remember it still cost me almost 2k. it took them forever to do it 4 months. i bitched so much i got a free yamaha leather jacket. i bought the extended warranty to never use it. the bike now has 16k on it and still runs great. good luck!!!
 
#61 ·
I hope everhthing works out for you.
 
#64 ·
Picked up my R1 from the dealer today. I asked them again if they did a compression test to rule out the valve/valve guide problem. They said "No...it was not done"...no info regarding compression testing in their paperwork!

I specifically asked that they do a compression test when I initially brought the bike to them for diagnosis! I told them at the time about the valve/valve guide problem I read about on the forum.

There is clearly some lack of communication and follow-through at this dealership. Not the type of operation I want wrenching my motor if it comes to a complete rebuild.

So...still looking for a indy in my area to talk with. Any suggestions? I live approximately 45 minutes north of Philadelphia off of I-95.

r1Totzauer
....Really??....more "conjecture" about "cheap" oil and filters??!! Please enlighten us with some reproducable concrete test data or put it to rest... I did alot of web search/reading on oil and filters...Blackstone Labs...calci.com...other sources, etc. I'm no expert....but I found no contraindications at the time for the oil/filter I used for the R1...especially considering I was still in a progressive engine break-in mode with dino oil and my oil/filter changes were at very short intervals...on a bike with only 3K miles that never broke the 8-9K RPM barrier. Again....do you have some test data from an independent source to back-up your "CHEAP" claims?? I'm all ears...!!! ...and waiting... I'll be happy to pay the repairs if it was clearly the fault of the oil filter and my poor decision making...

Suggestions for an indy mechanic in my area appreciated.

Thanks all...
Regards
 
#66 ·
Ask for the reason for the warranty denial in writing. If they blame the oil filter then send a letter/fax to the filter manufacture. They should be able to provide you the test details for that filter. I would file a complaint with the BBB as well.
 
#69 ·
Based on the symptoms you have described I would bet the house and farm your problem is a bad valve guide.This is a very common problem with the 2004-08 Yamaha R1models and in our shop we have seen a few of these issues with that model.When a local customer has brought a bike in with this type of issue we usually just buy a low mileage cylinder head off of Ebay and swap it out.I hope this helps.
 
#71 ·
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the 04-06 was ok with that and it started when they went back to the 4 valve design on the 07-08 with 07 being more of a problem. On this site, which I'm on a lot, I haven't seen nearly the amount of threads on the 04-06 with this problem. Of course, I could be wrong though.:hammer::hammer::hammer:
 
#79 ·
TBH i think the shop has 50% persuasion tactics over the MFG (yamaha)

my friend had a fz1 with a cracked frame, he took it to a FEW yamaha dealers and finally found 1, 2 cities over, to get his framed replaced free of charge.

All the other dealers told him yamaha wasnt going to cover it.

I think his was a 07 or 08 and this happened in 12 when it was past his warranty.
 
#85 ·
for 0 psi, you would have a valve held wide open, look in your intake and see if they are open, if not, blow air down your spark plug hole and listen for it coming out the exhaust......either that or you have a quarter size hole in your piston
 
#87 ·
Yep, intake valve, #3 so far, I've yet to get the engine out and pull the head, working with yamaha, they said they may help but a dealer tech has to confirm, it is a known problem with the. 7/8 models. 3800 miles and the valve guide ate the valve. Nice work Yamaha.
 

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#90 ·
I don't think I'm going to wait for the dealer, then run up a bill with the dealer only to find out that they will only pay for only parts and and I have to eat the labor, which I'm sure will be outrageous, and I have talked to others who have done the repair and not had any other problems, also if I wait for the dealer, it's going to be weeks, I bet if I can get he parts here this weekend I can get it done by the following. So I'm sourcing the parts now.
 
#91 ·
Hey all,

OP here...it's been a while but I thought I'd give an update to my engine problem. I had the engine repaired by an indy in my area. He's built and raced R1s and has a good rep. Here's what he found. He said he never saw carbon build-up like this before. Carbon had built-up and hardened on the head/valves and the tops of two pistons which lead to the engine knock I was experiencing. He sent me pics throughout the rebuild. I always used good gas. He said he didn’t think the oil/filters I was using were the problem. I told him about the valve guide issues with some 07-08’s but he said that wasn’t the problem as far as he could discern.

What was replaced: 2 pistons/connecting rods, crankshaft (because 2 journals had marks) replaced with a good one from a wreck; head was completely cleaned; valves/seats recut; cam chain and tensioner; and rotor.

It was painful $$. Glad I got such a good deal on the purchase price back in 2008. I just dumped the oil/filter 80 miles after the rebuild…replaced with Valvoline 10w40 MC oil and a Yamaha filter. Will probably run that about 200 miles and then take it back to the indy for an oil change and check. He said he would do a follow-up check/torque as part of the rebuild cost.

The bike runs like new…an 08, clean as new, with a little over 3K on the clock. I thought about selling it until I took it for a ride on some rural roads in my area. It’s still a thrill-ride for me…at 60 yoa…the R1 does things my Road King can’t and vice versa...two different worlds. My HD buddies think I'm nuts! Right now I’m thinking I’ll keep the R1. Hope I don’t regret it…another painful $$ repair and I’ll feel pretty foolish… What’s your .02? Sell or keep?? I couldn't afford a new one at this point…

Regards
 
#97 ·
I vote keep it, I'm going to be 59 soon and will never sell my R1. I had to sell one of two bike in my divorce agreement 7 years ago and opted to sell my V twin that I custom built and put 16 grand into to make it a show bike but it was a complete bore to ride so I kept the R1. Like you said, the new ones are very expensive and you just can't get the thrill out of a large V twin cruiser that you'll get out of the R1.
 
#98 ·
Since I had an 07 that suffered a failed intake valve, and I also ran the Purolator PL14612, I'm going to chime in on this. While I now believe that the Purolator filter is definitely not the filter to use, and I will show you why, I do not believe that this caused the failure of the intake valve on my 07. For reference, here is my thread on that: http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/105-07-08-r1-mechanical-help/234200-4-intake-valve-guide-failure.html All valves have a oil seal on them to keep oil out of the cylinder and are not directly lubricated by the engine oil. They depend on the low friction properties of the valve guides to keep moving. Actual oil lubrication occurs only on the top of the valve stem where it protrudes into the cylinder head, and that is minimal at best as far as the valve is concerned.

BUT, today I was changing the oil and filter on my 03 FZ1, which I have run the Purolator PL14612 on since the first oil change after I bought it new back in 2004. I was at Wal-Mart and they did not have my filter in stock, and since I did not feel like running to a different store, I decided to look for a different filter. I ended up choosing the Fram M/C specific oil filter for it. Now here is what I found very interesting. Notice the flow holes on the Purolator (yellow) filter versus the Fram (black) filter. In my opinion, there is definitely a flow issue with these filters compared to a motorcycle filter. Eight small holes on the Purolator versus ten larger holes on the Fram. Now I don't normally run Fram filters at all, but this has to be an improvement over the Purolator.

Just food for thought.
 

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#99 ·
fram filters are actually pretty good, i ran them on my R6 but i changed the oil and filter so often it rarely made a difference...

i am sticking with my recommendation of WIX or HIFLO filtro!! simply nothing better out there :fact

it is actually scary to see that bloody purolator filter!! wtf!! seriously... that looks bloody stupid for the kind of bikes we ride! :shake
 
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