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Why countersteer?????

158K views 1K replies 190 participants last post by  MaRce1o 
#1 ·
I know this is a question for the Superbike School and if I ever get my copy of Twist of the Wrist 2 I know I'll find out more but I wanted to get your feedback.

What is countersteer? Same as with a car to keep from losing the rear end? When is it necessary cuz I know I'm not intentionally doing it? Or maybe I am and just don't know it.

My canyon carving is really improving and every opportunity I get I try to drag a knee. But I'm not sure what countersteer is for........on a bike that is.

Thanks for the help,

JG
 
#962 ·
Don't mean to ruffle your feathers but no one knows what your saying dude becuase you're making it more complicated than it has to be.

Riding is a thing of the soul, sometimes you just need to get out and feel it happen not conjur up formulas that simply dont exist.

And my heads not up Keiths arse at all... his simple, non-complicated way of teaching skills have helped god knows how many the world over, myself included. A simple read of twist 2 took my riding to another level. :fact

Some things have to be learnt by trial and error not in class rooms and I feel the answers you are looking for fall in this category.

I don't believe you'll find anyone here willing to cook up a counter steering formula with you, we're all to busy riding and modding and talking about both to care.

It's like sex, if you force it... it will end bad. When it happens naturally its a beautiful thing.

Anyway I'm here to have fun so this is me out.

:hellobye
 
#978 ·
What kind of tire pressures are you running? This can make the bars feel heavy and not want to turn in if they are to low or to high front to rear.I'm running about 29 front 32 rear And it gives me a little more feel / resistance than the stock psi numbers do.
 
#983 ·
No chance of the bars feeling heavy with those pressures... that's rediculously high if you are riding solo and spirited twisties imo.

Depending on type of ride and weather my pressures range from 30-33 cold front and 30-36 cold rear.
 
#985 ·
The MFG came up with that number because he had to assume you would be riding two up all the time. The extra weight makes a difference, For legalities sake. But for better handling feed back through the bars lower is better, It also gives you better grip because the contact patch is larger.
 
#998 ·
Countersteer Pressure

Hi everyone,

I understand as a bike leans over, precession turns the wheel in to the lean and trail also turns the wheel in the direction of the turn. These two forces oppose your countersteering input and become stronger as the bike leans over.

Is it better therefore to countersteer quickly with maximum pressure for the turn demands to deflect the front tyre whilst the bike is upright before trail and precession oppose your input more as the bike leans over?

I dont put all the force in at once to lean the bike, I tend to countersteer slowly but progressively harder to increase lean angle. But I find that I have to push quite hard on the bar to lean the bike any further once it has started to lean. Is that because I am countersteering too slowly?

Will the bike require less pressure to lean further if I countersteer quicker by initially pushing harder and not slowly building up the countersteer pressure?
 
#1,009 ·
Yes but Stonewall said the opposite to you KMAC

Press harder to go farther hold to maintain
Today 12:59 AM

If you input a small amount of pressure (press softly) you will lean over gradually. If you input a larger amount of pressure (press harder) you will lean over more quickly

Stonewall is saying press harder to lean further;

Kmac is saying press harder to lean quicker, hold pressure to lean further whereas Kmac is saying hold pressure to maintain lean angle.

Who is right?
 
#1,011 ·
No I didn't,What you are missing I think is the term "press harder" There is resistance felt in the bars when you are trying to make a steering input! not like on your car with power steering! So what I was saying is that if you are making a sweeping right hand turn you would push the right bar forward until you achieve the line that you want in your lane, and if this curve tightens up half way around you increase the pressure on the right bar to lean it over more and tighten the radius of the turn to keep the bike in the position you want it in the lane.Now when you reach the end of the curve you start putting pressure on the left bar which stands the bike up out of it's right hand arc and straightens up in the lane again. To me the bars is like a balance beam, you apply pressure to one side decrease on the other equally.
 
#1,010 ·
Look, for the last time, the whole process is dynamic as there's more going on than just pressing on the bars and the bike leaning over. Nothing about it is linear, or constant for very long. It's not something you think about, you just do it.....like chewing.

While people may think they are holding "constant pressure" on the bars, that's not exactly what it is. You hold pressure to lean, then when you reach the lean you need you back off the pressure, the wheel turns into the turn and you hold "Constant position" of the bars until you drive out and start to stand the bike up. There's likely even more going on than that, but that's as simple as it can be explained and get the point across. Again, you just do it, you don't think about it.
 
#1,012 ·
This is hilarious.

You all mean the same thing, but because it's the internet and people understand things differently, 'yall are throwing a fit.

:corn
 
#1,016 ·
I try make simple.

1) push left bar forward to lean bike left
2) when desired lean / line achieved, stop pushing bar. U can have near zero weight on handles
3) start throttling / rolling on ( depending on the turn, u can actually roll on fast / slow)

Drill
For starters, try it on long sweepers. Crack throttle open in turn and have near zero pressure on bars. Try to maintain speed thru turn. You will understand better once u do the drill once or twice.

Note, you will need to have throttle opened enough in order to maintain speed thru the turn.

This is a drill to help you feel / trust you can have zero pressure on bars while bike is leaned over provided you have good throttle control.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Motorcycle.com Free App
 
#1,018 · (Edited)
Sorry guys you got me, I am only 8 years old and ride a mini moto.

Just wanted to be like Casey Stoner thats all!:eek:wwn3d

Only joking,

Ok I went out yesterday and experimented some more. Yes the bike does lean more if you hold the pressure, but I find the problem I have is that my bike swerves too much to the inside of the curve when I apply my countersteer input taking me off line.

I noticed alot of track riders and moto gp riders seem to be able to get their bikes to lean over quite far without their bikes swerving towards the inside of the bend as they are leaning over, in some cases looking like they are riding straight while lent over or leaning over. Either I am not quite applying the Countersteer correctly or perhaps I am and it is natural for the bike to swerve and lean at the same time?

Maybe I am not pressing on the clip ons properly causing the bike to swerve more than lean over? I have noticed that if you press on the clip on gently the bike leans a little and then seems to go diagonally across my lane, But when going faster I still find my bike will swerve too much to the inside before being leant over far enough into the corner, making left handers difficult to deal with on uk roads because I cannot square the corner off properly to see around them.

I am sorry for the repeated posts on this, and for getting on your nerves but I know there is something in the application of the countersteer that I am getting wrong, and you guys are the best people to solve it. I am hoping someone will have had the above problem at some point and be able to say to me what you did to get over it.

I bet if I lived in America I would find left handers easier than right handers because of this swerving/leaning problem I currently have on uk roads.

Do any of you find your bikes swerving and leaning at the same time? is there a way to force the bike to lean more than swerve when applying the countersteer?
 
#1,020 ·
I noticed alot of track riders and moto gp riders seem to be able to get their bikes to lean over quite far without their bikes swerving towards the inside of the bend as they are leaning over, in some cases looking like they are riding straight while lent over or leaning over. Either I am not quite applying the Countersteer correctly or perhaps I am and it is natural for the bike to swerve and lean at the same time?

Maybe I am not pressing on the clip ons properly causing the bike to swerve more than lean over? I have noticed that if you press on the clip on gently the bike leans a little and then seems to go diagonally across my lane, But when going faster I still find my bike will swerve too much to the inside before being leant over far enough into the corner, making left handers difficult to deal with on uk roads because I cannot square the corner off properly to see around them.
Turn later. You are probably applying CS correctly. But due to the flick rate being much faster. You find yourself inside the turn. How to resolve
1) Turn later
2) shorten the time you apply pressure and thus less lean.
3) increase speeds thru turn

Pls note. The idea of cornering is
1) as fast as possible
2) as little lean as possible


Sent from my GT-N7105 using Motorcycle.com Free App
 
#1,019 ·
You're either not going very fast at all, and don't really need much lean, or you're not maintaining any throttle once you've stopped leaning, or both. You're perilously close to dumping your bike if you persist in doing these "lean only" tests and aren't keeping proper speeds, or high enough speed to begin with, etc.
 
#1,022 · (Edited)
Kmac I am going pretty fast because otherwise it would only take a small input to snap the bike over, your just being antagonistic.

Cheong 1106 Turn later would be fine if the bike would lean over instead of swerve and lean; Shorten the time might work and it might well be that I am taking too long to countersteer resulting in more a swerve towards the inside of the bend and a slow lean rate; increasing speeds wont help because I am already having trouble getting the bike to lean quickly over without swerving too much, more speed will probably make it even harder; I agree with you about the idea but putting it in to practice is the problem

Stonewall thx for the advice but I am having the same problem on different roads and surfaces so I dont think your comments really help
 
#1,026 ·
No you might be right xlatinox I think I am holding the pressure too long after the turn in point, resulting in a swerve and eventually some lean, perhaps I should push harder, release sooner and lean my torso in simultaneously to the turn a bit more to maintain/improve my roll rate.

Currently I am pushing quite hard on the bar but sort of increasing the pressure up to the max torque over about a second or 2. I think the bike is swerving as I increase the pressure and then leaning a bit further once the pressure has built up to a sufficient force. But by the time the pressure has built up to max the bike has already swerved offline from the steady increasing pressure. Once I get to max pressure the bike lean rate seems to have slowed, probably because trail has aligned the front wheel with the rear wheel by the time max pressure is reached.

On right hand bends the above habit does not bother me because I can choose a turning in point to account for it as I can see around the bend. But left hand bends are very hard to judge at speed because of my habit and they are blind corners on uk roads.

Do you think pushing harder, then releasing the pressure as soon as the bike begins to swerve hard from the push steer will convert that swerve in to a lean and allow the bike to arc in to the curve.

Im sure my countersteer problems are related to timing and specifically when to release the pressure. I think I have read too much in to statements that holding the pressure increases the lean angle, but I dont think this is the case because despite holding the pressure, I am not leaning over too far.

I think the initial countersteering push causes the front wheel to deflect resulting in the forward thrust from the back wheel producng a kink torque around the steering head leaning the bike over. But after kink torque is produced I think the pressure on the bars should be release to prevent the back wheel aligning with the front wheel slowing the lean rate and to allow the front wheel to track the bend.


What I am trying to say is :

should I be pressing quicker/harder at the turning point and releasing the pressure as soon as the bike feels like it has reached its maximum roll rate and if necessary steer in to the corner to arrest the lean angle and slow the roll rate until the right lean angle is achieved then release bar pressure all together or

continue pressing moderately up to maximum pressure at the turning in point and holding max pressure until the correct lean angle is reached then releasing the max pressure when the bike reaches max lean angle?

The latter technique seems to be taking me wide at the moment and resulting in a slow rate of lean and never reaching max lean angle. The first technique might be the solution?
 
#1,033 ·
What I am trying to say is :

should I be pressing quicker/harder at the turning point and releasing the pressure as soon as the bike feels like it has reached its maximum roll rate and if necessary steer in to the corner to arrest the lean angle and slow the roll rate until the right lean angle is achieved then release bar pressure all together or

continue pressing moderately up to maximum pressure at the turning in point and holding max pressure until the correct lean angle is reached then releasing the max pressure when the bike reaches max lean angle?

The latter technique seems to be taking me wide at the moment and resulting in a slow rate of lean and never reaching max lean angle. The first technique might be the solution?
You will NEVER get good or fast if you honestly think about this while riding :fact

You should lean the bike as quickly as possible to the lean angle needed to make the corner on your line, then roll on the throttle
 
#1,027 ·
You should quit thinking about it while you're doing it, it sounds like you are going through a mental checklist of the mechanics of turning. You can't do them all in series like that. Even though some of the things happen in series, there's not time to think about it and then execute it; it all has to be fluid and happen together in rapid, automatic succession.
 
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