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Old 12-18-2012, 02:11 AM   #1
duggliotto
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How to reproduce the standard fuel/ignition/throttle maps on a 2012 R1?

This is going to sound like just another PCV vs Bazzaz vs Flash-Tune vs ECUnleashed thread, but I assure you, it isn't.

Basically, I'm interested in reproducing the standard fuel, ignition and throttle maps for my EU (Australian) 2012 R1, so I can truly see the 'restrictions' of the stock ECU.

I put 'restrictions' in talking marks because I'm not convinced all of the gear and rpm dependent restrictions are actually restrictions. For example, having the ability to get WOT at low rpm is not going to help you in the real world - the motor can only breath a certain amount of air at low rpm. Another reason for having a 'restricted' throttle is driveability - in other words, trying to achieve a linear power curve. By nature, petrol motors do not produce linear power curves. It takes a lot of tuning to achieve a linear power curve. It means targeting efficiency around the troughs and restrictions around the peaks. Also by nature, butterfly valves do not have a linear response. Therefore it doesn't really make sense to have a 1:1 TPS vs APS relationship, or even a linear TPS vs APS relationship.

Anyway... to get back on track...

Flash-Tune and ECUnleashed claim to remove these 'restrictions', and the customers on these forums certainly back up their claims. However, I'd really like to find out for myself. And do it like an Engineer - which I am.

My first question:
Is there a way to read the OEM maps off the OEM ECU?
I'm guessing the answer is No. I'm also guessing people are going to say the Flash-Tune 'standard maps' ARE the same as my OEM maps.
Well I'm not 100% sure this is the case because a) Flash Tune is based on a US ECU, and I've got an EU ECU (which I'm lead to believe has less 'restriction'), and b) I understand the flashing process replaces the entire OEM software with a 3rd party software (it doesn't just unlock the OEM software), so we are trusting the programmers knew what the OEM maps were, and that their software can run our motors just as well if not better, which is an incredible claim in the case of Flash-Tune, where there's 1 guy vs an entire Electrical Engineering division of Yamaha with (i'd imagine) a much larger budget, facilities and knowledge base.
I could be completely wrong about the flashing process. Please feel free to correct me.
My second question:
Is there a way to intercept and manually record the ECU output signals to the sparkplugs, injectors and butterfly valves, as well as the ECU input signals from the Accelerator Position and RPM Sensors, so I could manually reproduce the fuel, ignition and throttle maps?
I'm guessing dealers have the equipment to do this, but it's not commercially available.
All of this is probably way too hard, and not worth the effort, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway.

It would be great to know what the OEM maps are for sure, instead of trusting a 3rd party. And to know what the OEM gear and rpm 'restrictions' are for sure, instead of trusting here-say on the interwebs. Then we could scientifically compare the OEM maps with Flash-Tune and ECUnleashed maps and actually see what the difference is, in absolute terms.

I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'd just like to do some experimenting.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:07 AM   #2
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Will be keeping an eye on this thread, as a 2012 R1 owner from Australia myself these are some questions I have also had.

I currently have a PCV with a custom dyno tune but have also been thinking of trying the Flash-Tune out as well.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:56 AM   #3
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Also from Melbourne Australia with a Flashtune in the mail.

Flashtune ave recently told me they are looking to release the standard maps for a euro spec bike in the near future (no date given) this will also help avoid the immobiliser bypass.

Don't know the answers to the above but keen to find out
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:28 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by mnd View Post
Also from Melbourne Australia with a Flashtune in the mail.
Awesome man. Let me know when you get it running. Would love to see the process in person.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:07 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duggliotto View Post
This is going to sound like just another PCV vs Bazzaz vs Flash-Tune vs ECUnleashed thread, but I assure you, it isn't.

Basically, I'm interested in reproducing the standard fuel, ignition and throttle maps for my EU (Australian) 2012 R1, so I can truly see the 'restrictions' of the stock ECU.

I put 'restrictions' in talking marks because I'm not convinced all of the gear and rpm dependent restrictions are actually restrictions. For example, having the ability to get WOT at low rpm is not going to help you in the real world - the motor can only breath a certain amount of air at low rpm. Another reason for having a 'restricted' throttle is driveability - in other words, trying to achieve a linear power curve. By nature, petrol motors do not produce linear power curves. It takes a lot of tuning to achieve a linear power curve. It means targeting efficiency around the troughs and restrictions around the peaks. Also by nature, butterfly valves do not have a linear response. Therefore it doesn't really make sense to have a 1:1 TPS vs APS relationship, or even a linear TPS vs APS relationship.

Anyway... to get back on track...

Flash-Tune and ECUnleashed claim to remove these 'restrictions', and the customers on these forums certainly back up their claims. However, I'd really like to find out for myself. And do it like an Engineer - which I am.

My first question:
Is there a way to read the OEM maps off the OEM ECU?
I'm guessing the answer is No. I'm also guessing people are going to say the Flash-Tune 'standard maps' ARE the same as my OEM maps.
Well I'm not 100% sure this is the case because a) Flash Tune is based on a US ECU, and I've got an EU ECU (which I'm lead to believe has less 'restriction'), and b) I understand the flashing process replaces the entire OEM software with a 3rd party software (it doesn't just unlock the OEM software), so we are trusting the programmers knew what the OEM maps were, and that their software can run our motors just as well if not better, which is an incredible claim in the case of Flash-Tune, where there's 1 guy vs an entire Electrical Engineering division of Yamaha with (i'd imagine) a much larger budget, facilities and knowledge base.
I could be completely wrong about the flashing process. Please feel free to correct me.
My second question:
Is there a way to intercept and manually record the ECU output signals to the sparkplugs, injectors and butterfly valves, as well as the ECU input signals from the Accelerator Position and RPM Sensors, so I could manually reproduce the fuel, ignition and throttle maps?
I'm guessing dealers have the equipment to do this, but it's not commercially available.
All of this is probably way too hard, and not worth the effort, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway.

It would be great to know what the OEM maps are for sure, instead of trusting a 3rd party. And to know what the OEM gear and rpm 'restrictions' are for sure, instead of trusting here-say on the interwebs. Then we could scientifically compare the OEM maps with Flash-Tune and ECUnleashed maps and actually see what the difference is, in absolute terms.

I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'd just like to do some experimenting.

Thanks in advance.

Hi, answer on your question is pretty simple, make a few dyno runs and you will get answer quite fast .

From my experience the most important and absolutely blow mind is possibility of make my own engine characteristic which is not possible with any other cheap equipment. In simple words you have YEC-ecu in your bike but much much cheaper.

Another important thing for EU(Australian) bikes is control of close-loop O2 sensor map as well as ignition maps with TPS. Fuel management can be made via PCV and is fine.

Here you have dyno of the same bike with std. ECU(EU imobilaser) and pcv Fueling vs ECU-flash+ignition+ the same pcv fuel map.

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Old 12-18-2012, 05:37 AM   #6
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YEC ecu has tuned maps loaded meant for the mods of cams, valve spring, gasket and intake stacks. Pretty sure the ignition advance on that would be different apart from the fuel map.

YEC ecu can be updated in under a minute whereas FT takes about 5-6.

FT is great. Has the adjustability like YEC. Relatively inexpensive. And regularly updated.

With FT + PCV + AT, decat. Some tuning of the AFR tables (from FT thread) and I got a pretty strong drive as it is. Kinda keeping up with the S1K actually.

Next step is the YEC mods. Hehehe



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Old 12-18-2012, 06:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheong1106 View Post
YEC ecu has tuned maps loaded meant for the mods of cams, valve spring, gasket and intake stacks. Pretty sure the ignition advance on that would be different apart from the fuel map.

YEC ecu can be updated in under a minute whereas FT takes about 5-6.

FT is great. Has the adjustability like YEC. Relatively inexpensive. And regularly updated.

With FT + PCV + AT, decat. Some tuning of the AFR tables (from FT thread) and I got a pretty strong drive as it is. Kinda keeping up with the S1K actually.

Next step is the YEC mods. Hehehe



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I'm going to put 0.3Yec gasket as well as grinding surface around 0.1. Another is porting job but only blueprinting I do not want make full c.head job because is not working well for rn22.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laxwendrof View Post
Hi, answer on your question is pretty simple, make a few dyno runs and you will get answer quite fast .

From my experience the most important and absolutely blow mind is possibility of make my own engine characteristic which is not possible with any other cheap equipment. In simple words you have YEC-ecu in your bike but much much cheaper.

Another important thing for EU(Australian) bikes is control of close-loop O2 sensor map as well as ignition maps with TPS. Fuel management can be made via PCV and is fine.

Here you have dyno of the same bike with std. ECU(EU imobilaser) and pcv Fueling vs ECU-flash+ignition+ the same pcv fuel map.
Thanks for the response. I agree that a dyno is the easiest way to compare systems, but it doesn't explain what's happening inside the ECU.

I would like to know for sure what the various gear and rpm dependant restrictions are, on an OEM EU ECU.

Can anyone verify if the flashing process completely replaces the OEM software or simply unlocks it?

Does anyone know if dealers have the equipment to read or edit OEM maps?
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:05 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by duggliotto View Post
Thanks for the response. I agree that a dyno is the easiest way to compare systems, but it doesn't explain what's happening inside the ECU.

I would like to know for sure what the various gear and rpm dependant restrictions are, on an OEM EU ECU.

Can anyone verify if the flashing process completely replaces the OEM software or simply unlocks it?

Does anyone know if dealers have the equipment to read or edit OEM maps?

For sure factory has similar eq. like FT has. This factory ECU is std. Denso computer nothing special as for the other JP bikes. If you have time check YEC-ecu details. There you have more or less the same functions as is in the std. ECU.

About restrictions are for sure because of different emission stdandarts. But because this ECU is generic the factory can moded every parameter for specific market. From this point of view, your ECU can by different form any France and German brick even if they are similar in terms of immo.

For example Japan rn22 model has EXUP valve on exhaust it means this function must be also in your bike ECU but is not active.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:54 AM   #10
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And one from Turkey with an 2012 EU R1. I was also considering to buy flashtune. But now I'm waiting for the new "box" model flashtune interface which has a bluetooth, card readers etc. with many more improvements
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:54 AM   #11
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OK, so who says it is impossible to read what the stock ECU is? It is not a feature using the F-T interface yes. However, with the correct equipment it is possible to read the instruction set off of a stock ECU. They likely have this ability at F-T, because they have added an EU ECU image for a 12.

Like it was said above, not all the stock ECUs are the same (EU or US or any other country), due to different regulations.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:48 AM   #12
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Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. Thank you laxwendrof, ejlover and tad158.

So not only are EU restrictions different to US restrictions, but Turkey restrictions could be different to French or Australian restrictions, and probably California restrictions are probably different to Texas restrictions?

Tad158, I had a feeling F-T could probably read the standard ECU, but unfortunately for me, I doubt they would share this method - seeing as it's the core of their business. But on another thought, maybe they can't read the OEM source code? Maybe the guy's just written a program from scratch, or adapted a generic motorbike program? (and no, that's not a comment about him 'stealing' code from ECUnleashed). I'm only up to page 121 of the F-T Interface thread, but he seemed to have extreme difficulty fixing that flat-spot people were having. Up to page 121, I'm fairly sure his only working solution was to disable his 'force idle' feature. He claimed to have multiple updates had fixed the issue, but people kept experiencing it. This really doesn't give me confidence that his program is anywhere near as sophisticated as the OEM software - if in fact it is completely different.

Until I read the next 120 pages of the F-T Interface thread, and gain confidence he know's what he's doing, I don't think I'll be flashing my ECU.

The whole point about my first post in this thread is that: instead of guessing what logic goes on inside an OEM ECU or flashed ECU, we could just test the signal inputs and outputs, and find out for sure. That way, I could have confidence that the F-T software does or doesn't do what it's meant to do.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:13 AM   #13
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As of right now all features are working properly. You must understand the difference between OEM and additional features. All OEM features work perfectly fine, when the OEM features are enabled. In other words, the new features such as: a different idle set point, speed calibration, different RPM set points, ect. , ect....

I would also offer this, the F-T code is development. Some times new features work out of the box, sometimes they do not. F-T has done a very nice job addressing bugs in a timely manner when they come up. The help thread should also be read as a time capsuel. If you want to know about issues with the current release read the end (most current posts). And if you did that, we are mostly discussing fuel and timing maps. As of late (the last 6 ish months), the only real issue we had was the speed correction not displaying speeds above 156mph, which was fixed within a few weeks after it was reported to F-T.

In other words, there have been plenty of people who have run a F-T ECU image on the dyno, and their results show that the ECU is very much unlocked and editable via F-T. There have also been no real reports of damage to an ECU (save one for unknown reasons, may well have occurred in shipping which F-T addressed in a very nice manner), nor have there been any reports of damage to engines thus far. The flat spot was in the fuel and ignition maps from the US OEM ECU in the 12 R1....So that is not on F-T, and has since been successfully tuned out by an number of people here with '12s.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:41 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Tad158 View Post
The flat spot was in the fuel and ignition maps from the US OEM ECU in the 12 R1....So that is not on F-T, and has since been successfully tuned out by an number of people here with '12s.
If you are refering to that "flat spot" in the mid-range(around 9K) on the '12, that was fixed by just changing the velocity stack lift RPM. Which was great to be able to change through the FT software.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:57 AM   #15
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Right there has been that discovery as well. Thanks oil! That was an impressive dyno discovery
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:42 AM   #16
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Hi

Seems you guys are the crowd that can give me an educated answer to my 2012 r1 problem..

I just bought an accident damaged 2012 yamaha R1, unfortunately the ECU was badly damaged. I managed to pick up a full ignition, ecu system for a 2009 model.

I fitted the ecu and ignition the the 2012 harness.

I know get an error 15 ( TROTTLE CONTROL SENSOR), and the bike wont start. I have replaced the sensor and checked the harness (conitunity). Is it possible that the differences btw the ecu's is causing theis error?

there are NO other errors at all.

PLEASE HELP!! IM OUT OF IDEAS..
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:08 AM   #17
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Hi

Seems you guys are the crowd that can give me an educated answer to my 2012 r1 problem..

I just bought an accident damaged 2012 yamaha R1, unfortunately the ECU was badly damaged. I managed to pick up a full ignition, ecu system for a 2009 model.

I fitted the ecu and ignition the the 2012 harness.

I know get an error 15 ( TROTTLE CONTROL SENSOR), and the bike wont start. I have replaced the sensor and checked the harness (conitunity). Is it possible that the differences btw the ecu's is causing theis error?

there are NO other errors at all.

PLEASE HELP!! IM OUT OF IDEAS..
An 09 ECU is not compatible with a 12+ wiring harness. You need a 2012+ ECU. Yo cannot flash an 09 ECU with a 12 ECU image, the ECU's are intrinsically different.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Tad158 View Post
An 09 ECU is not compatible with a 12+ wiring harness. You need a 2012+ ECU. Yo cannot flash an 09 ECU with a 12 ECU image, the ECU's are intrinsically different.


Thank you for the reply.. I did not flash it with 2012 it's exactly as it was in the 09 bike, I was just hoping to get the bike running even without the TCS till a 2012 ecu is available.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:24 AM   #19
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Yea...unfortunately you cannot, because the harnesses are different, including how the instrument cluster communicates with ECU and so on.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:36 AM   #20
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Yea...unfortunately you cannot, because the harnesses are different, including how the instrument cluster communicates with ECU and so on.

wow.. and it looked like it was going to work.. only one error.. Don't suppose you have one you'd like to sell

ps. thanks a mill for the confirmation!
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