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Bad News Regarding my 2008 R1...engine failure

23K views 102 replies 39 participants last post by  juiced gt 
#1 ·
Hey all...I need some help/advice.

I brought my '08 R1 (only ~3,000 miles on bike) to the dealer about 4 weeks ago so they could check a knocking sound that I thought might be the stuck valve/valve guide problem that others have experienced with the R1. I started hearing what I assumed was louder than normal valve ticking the last 200 miles before the knocking started. I also called Yamaha Customer Service to register this issue before seeing the dealer. The dealer got back to me about 2 weeks ago and said they think the problem is the cam chain tensioner which they ordered and replaced and told me it would cost me ~$4-500 out of pocket. Yesterday, they called to say they re-assembled the bike and started it up but the knocking is still there. They spoke on the phone with a Yamaha tech rep and now they suspect I spun a main bearing on the crankshaft.

I changed oil and filter myself at 400, 800, 1,300, 2,000 and again recently at 2,9xx miles when I first noticed the knock. I have 3 bikes and only ride on weekends so I made it a point to change oil before recommended maintenance intervals and at least annually. The bike is garage kept in a dry environment and stable temperatures. I used Rotella Triple Protection 15W40 dino (API CJ-4/SM, JASO MA) and a Purolator 'Pure One' PL14612 filter at each change. This oil meets the standard specified in the owner's manual and scores highly in all used oil lab test results that I've researched.

The Yamaha rep told the dealer that the PL14612 oil filter is a "car" filter and probably caused oil-starvation leading to the engine failure and thus Yamaha won't pay for the repair. I got oil/oil filter recommendations on this forum and other sources like calci.com...others seem to be using this oil and filter for many miles without engine failures. Calci.com gave good feedback on both the Rotella and PL14612 for motorcyles.

The dealer says they have to pull/breakdown the engine for the repair and the cost can be high. I've asked the dealer to give me a best and worst case scenario for cost of parts and labor. I also asked the dealer to wait a week while I check-in with Forum members. It's hard to believe this engine should have failed at just under 3K miles with the oil changes that I did. The bike was undergoing a progressive break-in and never was over 8-9K RPMs to date. I've since read that the by-pass pressure on the PL14612 is ~14-18 PSI, and that motorcycles typically are designed for an oil filter with 8-11 PSI bypass pressure. Would that small difference in by-pass pressure have caused this type of failure? I can't imagine that the by-pass would have even come into play on a relatively clean filter with such low mileage.

So what advice can you offer me? Is Yamaha giving me the corporate run-around? Should I defend the use of the PL14612 and push harder for Yamaha Corp to pay for repairs? Also, if indeed oil starvation caused a main bearing failure, what other potential damage could have been done to the engine/tranny? The dealer drove the bike and said the tranny seems fine. Is it worth fixing if I have to pay for repairs out-of-pocket, or should I eat the loss and sell the bike for parts?

I really like the bike. I was hoping to ride it more, especially for work commutes and pleasure. I got that sick feeling in my gut...

Advice appreciated
 
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#2 ·
Honestly, you cheaped out on oil and a filter for a high performance machine and now you want Yamaha to pay for it? Sorry man. Get ready to bite a big repair bill, Yamaha shouldn't have to pay for you being cheap.

Oil is the most important part of the bike, why cheap out?
 
#3 ·
new engine might be cheaper. look on ebay.
 
#7 ·
You can see if it's the excessive intake valve guide wear right in the air box down the intake tubes.
 
#9 · (Edited)
purolator makes oil filters!?? wtf...

honestly dude.. amsoil advanced synthetic + hiflofiltro, done...
why would you fvck around with with perfection!??

lesson learned aguess! :thumbup



recently rode the bike after not riding her through summer, the gear box felt sticky as shite..
instantly new it. oil got old... bike not getting ridden through winter... time for oil change..

in goes AMSOIL, new filter as well.!! will do the same in spring... its so cheap.. when we're talking
about a 10k motorcycle,!!...
 
#10 · (Edited)
I bought my bike with 9k on it May of this year and changed the oil right away with Rotella T6 synthetic and a Wix 51358 filter. On my second oil change with 17k miles. Need to change it again ASAP. Engine has been very happy. I drive mine everyday to work 70 miles round trip. Even drove this morning at a chilly 30 degrees.

I have heard that puralator says don't use their filter on motorcycles. Somebody said it has a warning on the box. They do make a motorcycle filter though but I don't have the part number.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I ran K&N on my 700 grizzly with the same Rotella T6 and never had any issues with it either. I like the K&N because of the hex welded to the bottom. Make getting the filter of so much easier. Especially on grizzly with all the plastic on. Only reason I run Wix on the bike is because I can pick them up locally. Closest bike shop that carries hiflo or OEM is an hour away verses 5 minutes to get the Wix. And the bike seems to be happy with them so ill probably just keep using them. I don't really ride it hard though. Just a bunch of highway miles.
 
#13 ·
K&N filter and Mobil 1 Racing 4T. Been using it for as long as I can remember with no issues.
 
#15 ·
I don't understand why people cheap out...

I've seen multiple threads on people taking the cheap ways and having issues, but I've never seen a "amsoil/motul/repsol/mobile/(whatever name brand you feel like saying) blew my motor."
 
#17 ·
I've seen multiple threads on people taking the cheap ways and having issues, but I've never seen a "amsoil/motul/repsol/mobile/(whatever name brand you feel like saying) blew my motor."
Agreed, and I seriously doubt that's the case here. But if you were Yamaha, looking down the barrel of over $2000 worth of repairs, it would be easy to use that as a scapegoat.
 
#16 · (Edited)
When did this change into a "what oil do you use thread?" :dunno

As soon as I read "Bad News Regarding my 2008 R1...engine failure", I had a feeling...

I'm not going to claim that I'm some engine guru, but I seriously doubt that's what caused the engine problems the OP is having, especially considering the very well documented knocking/valve issues the 08's have.

OP I'd suggest getting a compression test run. If one of your cylinders is crazy low that will tell you right away that its not the damn oil or the filter, its the same valve issue so many other 07-08 owners have had. BTW if they tried to tell you it was the cam chain tensioner without doing a compression test, they just screwed you out of $400+ with no results.

Ask me how I know all of this... :shake

If I had to guess, I'd say Yamaha is looking for a way out of paying $2000+ for the valvetrain work that is probably causing the problem, and they found it by nitpicking your oil filter. I'd say get the compression test run, and steel yourself for a fight.

Check these threads too:
http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296718
http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234200

Sorry, but if you have a sick feeling in your gut now, wait until you see all the pics of valve stems from 07-08s that look like this one:

 
#20 · (Edited)
With all the 07-08s that had the exact same valve problem, why would this ONE very low mileage bike have valve issues only because of the filter?


He said they think he spun a main.
They also said they thought it was the cam chain tensioner. Replaced it, billed him for it, and obviously didn't fix a damn thing.

For the record, TWO shops told me it was the cam chain tensioner before my valve issue was discovered, and guess what? 15psi of compression in #3 (200-210 is within spec, I believe) and a valve that looked like a sharpened pencil.
 
#19 · (Edited)
He said they think he spun a main. The oil I can't see being the problem. What I can see being the problem is the filter. Like I said, puralator tells you not to use their filter on a motorcycle unless its a motorcycle filter. That being said, I'd pull the air box and look at the valves. It's easy to do. I did it when I installe my BMC filter. As notorious as these engines are for valve train issues, I would not rule that out until until I saw the valves personally. If it is a main, I would saw you screwd yourself by using the puralator filters. If its valve guide/valve issue, I would fight tooth and nail to make yamaha pay for it with only 3k miles.
 
#22 ·
Yes you did RedDevil! I agree with you, I just used that part of your post to point out that the OP shouldn't trust the shop at this point, as they may have discredited themselves somewhat. Sorry for leaving out the good stuff. :thumbup

I just really can't see this being an oil or filter issue. I think Yamaha is using that as an out.
 
#23 ·
I've since read that the by-pass pressure on the PL14612 is ~14-18 PSI, and that motorcycles typically are designed for an oil filter with 8-11 PSI bypass pressure. Would that small difference in by-pass pressure have caused this type of failure? I can't imagine that the by-pass would have even come into play on a relatively clean filter with such low mileage.
Found this on the interwebz somewhere...

According to Purolator, the Honda OEM filter bypass setting is 12 to 14 psi, and that is how they build their motorcycle oil filter. WIX (NAPA Gold) builds their motorcycle and automobile oil filters with a bypass setting of 8 to 11 psi, while AC Delco builds theirs to a setting of 11 to 17 psi. How much do these differences matter? I don't think anyone knows, even the engineers, and each has its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

If you do lots of racing, you're probably better off with a higher bypass setting.
If you do lots of *cold* starting, especially in the winter, or seldom change your filter, I think you're better off with a lower bypass setting. However, with few exceptions, bypass pressures for spin-on filters run in the 8 to 17 psi range, and any of them should work acceptably.
 
#27 ·
Hey everyone,

Thanks for the replies. Just to confirm, the oil used was Rotella Triple Protection 15W40 'dino'...not their synthetic oil. I was planning a switch to a quality syn (eg, Mobil 1 or other) at the next oil change (when reaching 5K).

Also, I'm not cheap...I don't mind paying for quality components however there is much info on the web and other sources (owners, testing labs, etc) that have tested/shown that alternative oils/filters perform as well or better than OEM products. I didn't just take one person's word, or accept one source of info when making the decision to use this oil and filter. In fact, there are threads on this forum and other sources where many owner's have offered alternate oil filters for the R1. It was feedback from forums and other sources (eg, calci.com)...a decision I made based on a "consensus" of many SB owners who used this oil (for break-in and/or regular use) and this filter for many miles without problems. If it was indeed the wrong decision, I accept that...it won't be the first time in my life I made wrong choices...but it wasn't because of being cheap, but instead practical...lesson learned. BTW...what would you Amsoil and Mobil 1 users say if Yamaha denied your warranty claim for a failure because you used what you consider a better quality oil than Yamalube?? Afterall, page 6-15 of the Owner's manual says "CAUTION....do not use oils...of a higher quality than specified." I have posted this issue here to get a consensus from R1 owners...from others who know much more about the R1 than I do.

I certainly understand the need to properly care for machines and provide quality components and service as needed. So again, I may have made a bad decision based on a lot of reading from other sportbike owners. Going forward...I will use only OEM components for my bikes...even if they're not the proven best...that way the Corps can't argue that was the cause of the failure, etc. Dwelling on this is not what I want to do. However, I am hard-pressed to believe that this problem is solely the fault of the oil filter...there may be other contributing factors...live and learn...sometimes the hard way. I'm not looking to Yamaha to pay for my mistakes, if indeed the cause of this failure was the wrong choice of oil filter.

For now, I am seeking advice on what to do going forward (eg, getting a second opinion from an 'experienced' indy to determine if indeed this is the valve problem, main bearings, or other, fixing this motor, or buy a new one, etc), and bottom-line...determine if it is worth fixing or selling the bike for parts.

At this point, I can't say I have full confidence in the dealer mechanic to assess the true cause of the problem...afterall, they replaced the cam chain tensioner, and the problem still exists...and this mechanic would be the one to perform the remaining work to make this bike whole again...and their taking advice over the phone from a Yamaha Tech Rep who works in a cubicle and hasn't listened to my motor...

I live in Bucks County, PA...near I-95. Anyone know a good indy (PM me please) from whom I can get a second opinion?? What is the cost of a new motor?

I sincerely appreciate everyone's feedback/advice.
 
#38 · (Edited)
At this point, I can't say I have full confidence in the dealer mechanic to assess the true cause of the problem...afterall, they replaced the cam chain tensioner, and the problem still exists...and this mechanic would be the one to perform the remaining work to make this bike whole again...and their taking advice over the phone from a Yamaha Tech Rep who works in a cubicle and hasn't listened to my motor...
Nor would I.

I sincerely hope you didn't already pay for that service. If you did, you might fight them over it. After all, you didn't pay for them to replace the cam chain tensioner - you paid for them to fix a particular problem, which they failed to do due to THEIR misdiagnosis.

I thought the same thing you did about them consulting Yamaha by phone. I'd imagine its exceedingly difficult to diagnose an engine problem over the phone. It is not difficult, however, to discuss a strategy to cover up incompetency or faulty engine manufacturing by shifting the blame onto you.

Remember:

07-08 R1 valvetrain problems: PROVEN

Inability of dealership to correctly diagnose an engine problem: PROVEN

That your oil/filter combination will destroy a motor: ??? (and very hard to prove anyway.)

Go with what you know.
 
#29 ·
Pull the air box and look at the intake valves! Open the butterfly's on the throttle bodies and shine a light on the valve stems. You will see a problem if its the valves. I would do this first. If its the valves, it's not an oil filter problems. It's a yamaha problem!
 
#33 ·
Have them do a compression check like many have stated (if not done already), easy to do with instant good or bad readings. And I would definitely NOT pay for replacement of the cam chain tensioner and labor, as it did not correct your problem. TELL them to check compression before going any further,and at least look at the valves through the intakes. There should be zero carbon or dirtyness of any kind, if not totally clean an intake valve isn't closing fully. The "knocking" sound could be an intake valve not fully closed being slammed opened by the too great of a clearance between cam and lifter bucket.
 
#37 ·
True, but if its the valves, that money would be better spent on some tools and a service manual. A head swap really is not very complicated. Now a bottom end problem, I would probably just buy an engine and slap in it.
 
#43 ·
Hey all...I need some help/advice.
There is absolutely NO way your Purolator filter caused the problem. What's the difference between the PL (car) filters and the ML (mororcycle) filters? The bypass pressure.

When does your oil filter go into bypass? When the filter media gets so clogged oil flow gets restricted and pressure builds in the oil filter. The bypass valve opens to prevent pressure build up in the filter and to provide proper flow of oil to the engine. Ever seen an exploded oil filter? It was old/clogged and the bypass valve failed (or in the case of some subaru cars, they flow so much oil the bypass valve doesn't allow enough flow when the filter media is clogged and pressure builds even though the bypass valve is open!).

The ML line of filters have a Relief Valve release pressure of 9 to 12 PSI.
The PL line of filters have a Relief Valve release pressure of 14 to 18 PSI.

So, the big question is, did the OP's "car" oil filter cause the problem? Absolutely not. With how often he was changing his oil and filter there is absolutely NO possibility his oil filter was in bypass. And that's the only difference between the car filter and the motorcycle filter.

My vote is on the valves ;)

I'm gonna open up the airbox on my 07 and have a look see as well!

-Jamie M.
 
#47 · (Edited)
There is absolutely NO way your Purolator filter caused the problem. What's the difference between the PL (car) filters and the ML (mororcycle) filters? The bypass pressure.

When does your oil filter go into bypass? When the filter media gets so clogged oil flow gets restricted and pressure builds in the oil filter. The bypass valve opens to prevent pressure build up in the filter and to provide proper flow of oil to the engine. Ever seen an exploded oil filter? It was old/clogged and the bypass valve failed (or in the case of some subaru cars, they flow so much oil the bypass valve doesn't allow enough flow when the filter media is clogged and pressure builds even though the bypass valve is open!).

The ML line of filters have a Relief Valve release pressure of 9 to 12 PSI.
The PL line of filters have a Relief Valve release pressure of 14 to 18 PSI.

So, the big question is, did the OP's "car" oil filter cause the problem? Absolutely not. With how often he was changing his oil and filter there is absolutely NO possibility his oil filter was in bypass. And that's the only difference between the car filter and the motorcycle filter.
Very nicely stated, I'm with you on this one.
 
#45 ·
I've ran the Purolator Pure One filters for years on my '03 R1 and '06 R6 without the first issue. Oil used has always been Mobil One 4T Bike full synthetic. Went back to the stock filter due to issues with clearance on my Vortex rearsets on the R6.
 
#50 ·
Here is a post from anther member.

Have you made any progress with your bike?

I tore mine apart this weekend and had a bad intake valve on the #4 cylinder. It's wasn't too hard to check if you haven't checked yours yet. Just pull the tank and air box off, look through the throttle bodies at the intake valves, and turn the crank shaft with a wrench until the valves open. You'll be able to see if the valve stem is worn. Also, feel free to PM me if you have any questions/need help.

Here's a few pictures of what mine looked like.





 
#51 · (Edited)
I had the valve issue around 5500.
 
#53 ·
Same here.

Ok, I'm late to the party gents, so sorry to ask a silly question but-
I looked at my build date- 02/07- so am I pretty much guaranteed to have this problem? Haven't had it apart to check, just wanna be prepared for what awaits me.
Guaranteed, no. But definitely in the zone. You should have a look.
 
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