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Why countersteer?????

158K views 1K replies 190 participants last post by  MaRce1o 
#1 ·
I know this is a question for the Superbike School and if I ever get my copy of Twist of the Wrist 2 I know I'll find out more but I wanted to get your feedback.

What is countersteer? Same as with a car to keep from losing the rear end? When is it necessary cuz I know I'm not intentionally doing it? Or maybe I am and just don't know it.

My canyon carving is really improving and every opportunity I get I try to drag a knee. But I'm not sure what countersteer is for........on a bike that is.

Thanks for the help,

JG
 
#2 ·
Counter Steering is not turning your clip-ons or (handle bars) to the right to turn right, what you do is push on the right clip-on (push foreward) to go right. Vice-a-versa to go left. What it does is start the leaning action. I know it sounds like it woun't work but it does. At high speed if you turn the bars then you are in essence crossing up your front end. Remember you have two gyroscopes ( two spinning wheels ) and by counter steering is the best and only way to turn a motorcycle. And read Twist of the wrist 2 Keith Code rocks!:rock
 
#4 ·
KanyonRacerR1 said:
Remember you have two gyroscopes ( two spinning wheels ) and by counter steering is the best and only way to turn a motorcycle.
KanyonRacerR1,

This is simply untrue. Yes, you must countersteer a motorcycle to turn it effectively. But body steering techniques are important as well. Keith Code is the only reasonably qualified school owner I know that tells his students that body steering is a waste of time. Jason Pridmore, Freddie Spencer, and Kevin Schwanz all teach body steering techniques at their schools.

Twist of the Wrist II has a lot of good information in it. But is not always right.

Scott
 
#6 ·
winders said:
KanyonRacerR1,

This is simply untrue. Yes, you must countersteer a motorcycle to turn it effectively. But body steering techniques are important as well. Keith Code is the only reasonably qualified school owner I know that tells his students that body steering is a waste of time. Jason Pridmore, Freddie Spencer, and Kevin Schwanz all teach body steering techniques at their schools.

Twist of the Wrist II has a lot of good information in it. But is not always right.

Scott
But isnt it true that by body steering, you are effectively putting yourself in a better position to to have more leverage to countersteer. Granted - the two techniques are related. However, for a new rider, it is more effective to counter steer and then LATER learn about how to get more leverage on the clipons by body steering.....
 
#7 · (Edited)
Ag Surfer said:
But isnt it true that by body steering, you are effectively putting yourself in a better position to to have more leverage to countersteer. Granted - the two techniques are related. However, for a new rider, it is more effective to counter steer and then LATER learn about how to get more leverage on the clipons by body steering.....
...body steering, as in moving your body to the left ahead of time while transitioning from a right lean into a left helps the bike switch quicker ...IN ADDITION to countersteering. The added weight on the opposite side helps the bike fall to the left quicker.

body steering is like letting go of the bars while on the way to stopping at a traffic light, and trying to correct your line by leaning your head and shoulders towards the direction you want to go...

counter-steering is making the steering head of a bike fall into one direction. ...this is done by briefly turning the bars opposite the direction of where you want the steering head to fall into.
If you want to make the steering head fall to the left and start a left lean, you briefly turn the bars to the right. ever notice racers 'cleaning or warming up' their tires by zig-zagging to the starting grid... that's counter-steering.

another way to describe counter-steering is to think that whenever you turn the bars on a moving bike, you're essentially causing some sort of front wheel braking(friction between tire and road) wherein the least path of resistance for the bike to continue its motion is opposite direction of where you steer. So if you steer to the right, the bike will want to continue moving forward... and left is where the least resistance is so it falls to the left. This obviously is less noticreable at crawling speed.



...sorry if Im a bit long but I too had a hard time figuring this out at first.:crash
 
#8 ·
Well it sure sounds like it is something I have been doing all along as predicted I just didn't know what it was called. Here is how I think about the physics of it all:

Let's take a look at a medium to high speed left turn. Without leaning with the body at all you put forward/down pressure on the left clip on which for a split second is trying to turn the bars to the right. During that split second that momentary turning to the right exposes the left side of the front tire to the oncoming pavement. This friction on the bottom side of the tire wants to make the top of the tire and hence the top of the bike flip forward. However, due to the weight of the bike, it's geometry, and the fact that this action takes place in such a short period of time the bike doesn't flip forward but instead just eases over and leans to the left therefore creating the turn. Now this turn can continue to be maintained even without a purposeful lean until the bars are countersteered the opposite direction.

Now let's add the lean/body position/body steering (whatever you want to call it) to the picture. One can lean off the bike without creating a turn. The classic example of this is "setting up" for a turn as I was taught in my first (of hopefully many) track days. In other words putting ass crack on the edge of the seat swinging the leg out and dropping the shoulder so that as the corner arrives the bike is planted and not being jostled by your body movement in the middle of the corner. BUT you can maintain this body position and keep the bike going straight or even in the opposite direction by countersteering the OPPOSITE direction. I agree that the body position in a lean gives you added leverage to countersteer. It also makes sense that the body steer enables the bike to flip into the turn quicker. This is where Ag surfer and Crash 2 make sense to me.

The combination of the two with a lot of practice is what comprises the high performance cornering of a motorcycle. I'm sure there are many more details involved than that so don't flame me.

FYI: my orginal question definitely made me look like a newer rider than I actually am. I got (getting) the street smarts but I'm still coming up to speed on all the lingo and countersteer was one of them.

So Winders. Pretty bold statement about Jason Pridmore, Freddie Spencer, and Kevin Schwanz!!! You must be THE MAN!!! How much does it cost to attend your school? A pretty penny I'm sure! All I know is I definitely wanna attend yours cuz that way I'll get the best training on the PLANET!!!:butt :bs :iamwithst

My $0.02 worth,

JG
 
#10 ·
Ag Surfer said:
if you are riding the canyons at a reasonable speed (not super slow) you are countersteering without even realizing it. In fact, anytime you turn the bike (other than at super slow speeds) you are countersteering. If you were not, then the bike wouldn't turn.
couldn't have said it better myself. next time you hit a straightaway, try lightly pushing on your left OR right grip. essentially, by pushing on your right grip, you are turning the wheel so it points left, yet the bike goes to the right. that's a small example of countersteering.

leaning + countersteering = superior cornering:fact

just make sure you are at the right speed :lol
 
#11 ·
I agree with most all of the comments for us that are experianced riders we use both in conjunction in turns while trail braking as I myself do. But to a new rider as was brought up earlier you should start off counter steering and when you do that you don't push down you push the bar foreward ie: push on the right clip on to go right, push on the left clip-on go left. :)
 
#12 ·
If you go to Code's School he has a ZX-6R that has had it's clipons and forks welded straight ahead. He says, if body steering works, jump on this bike, and lean it through turns. You won't be able to turn that bike the slightest. I think countersteering initiates the turn then body positioning helps your corner

Just my .02, maybe we need a resident Grand Prix Champion to give us his experience?

:beer
 
#13 ·
I agree with most all of the comments for us that are experianced riders we use both in conjunction in turns while trail braking as I myself do. But to a new rider as was brought up earlier you should start off counter steering and when you do that you don't push down you push the bar foreward ie: push on the right clip on to go right, push on the left clip-on go left. :)
 
#783 ·
This is the first time I've seen anyone else suggest single handed riding to learn about countersteer. I think it's one of the best ways to illustrate the effects.

One area where I differ from others is the importance of gyroscopic precession on steering. Many say the displacement of the wheel makes the bike tilt in the opposite direction. Take a wheel, (bicycle, motorcycle or whatever), and hold the shaft (use gloves). Get the wheel spinning fast and try to turn it. as if your arms are the forks. The force will be felt ninety degrees ahead of and in the direction of the input force (turning force when pushing the left clip-on is transmitted to the wheel. The resultant force pushes the bottom of the wheel to the right, making the wheel lean to the left.) Anyone who's flown a prop driven airplane has felt the same force.
I don't dispute that the wheel displacement has something to do with it but gyroscopic precession plays a larger role in my opinion by providing the actual force that causes the wheel to displace from the line of travel.

Also, in my opinion, body steering can be compared to sailing when you hang off the boat to keep the boat from tipping. You are using your body to counter centrifugal force that's wanting to pull you to the outside of the turn. Hanging off and knee dragging has the added benefit of lowering your center of gravity, keeping cornering forces down and reducing the required lean angle for the same turn radius and speed.

I know, I know.... opinions are like what??? Just my thoughts and that's about it.

Paul
 
#15 ·
I think countersteering initiates the turn then body positioning helps your corner

There is no think about it, its an absolute fact. I don't care if your a 400 lb person you can't lean a motorcycle (@ speed) without countersteer. Its all in the physics. Even in mid corner if you misjudge a corner and lets say its a right hander and your angle is cutting the apex to sharp which will cause you to end up in the grass on the inside of the corner. To "shallow" out your lean angle guess what input you make. Either push on the left clipon or pull on the right one, or both simultaneously. The input would be gentle but countersteer nevertheless. This is not an issue for debate its fact, plain and simple. Its all based on the physics of a gyroscope like someone else earlier in this thread already stated.
 
#17 ·
My .02, it in canadian so its worth even less. I'll just walk through the process. going straight, push right bar, wheel points to left and out from underneath the bike, bike falls to the right, gyro from the large turn you just initiated holds you up. you can see this at a walking speed with a bicycle, just the big gyro isnt there to keep it from falling all the way over.
 
#18 ·
Just get going 50 mph or so and push on the right clip on. Which way does the bike go?? That is counter steering. As said above, I believe that body steering is used in conjuction w/ counter steering to get the bike to corner most effectively during very aggresive cornering.

- BA
 
#19 · (Edited)
Droog said:
If you go to Code's School he has a ZX-6R that has had it's clipons and forks welded straight ahead. He says, if body steering works, jump on this bike, and lean it through turns. You won't be able to turn that bike the slightest. I think countersteering initiates the turn then body positioning helps your corner

Just my .02, maybe we need a resident Grand Prix Champion to give us his experience?

:beer
You are partially correct. The forks are not welded, they operate normally, as does the steering head. If they didn't, the purpose and operational integrity of the No BS Bike would be nullified. There are two sets of bars, one being the nornal clip-ons, and another a set of fixed bars a tad above the clip-ons. The stationary fixed bars have an auxilliary fully functional throttle control.

I have personally ridden the No BS Bike, and I know many others who have also. No one who has ever ridden it, regardless of their talent or notoriety, has ever been able to steer it with body steering, peg steering, or whatever you want to call it, in the absence of the ability to apply countersteer inputs into the normal clip-ons. And I do mean no one.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I'm not sure what your question is about? Counter steering is the only way to steer a motorcycle. You're not going to be able to steer motorcycle (at speed) any other way. If you can turn your motorcycle at speed in the direction you want to go, you are counter steering whether know it, or not.

To me the important thing is to know is that you are counter steering so that when you get in a situation where you have to turn the bike quickly in a particular direction, you'll consciously turn the handlebars hard in the opposite direction you want to go.
 
#842 ·
To me the important thing is to know is that you are counter steering so that when you get in a situation where you have to turn the bike quickly in a particular direction, you'll consciously turn the handlebars hard in the opposite direction you want to go.
Yep that is the most important thing about countersteering, you have to be consciously using it.

You can stand with all your weight on one peg, hopping up and down if you like, that bike anit gonna turn unless the front wheel deflects the mass off centre.

To be honest i'm quite supprised to find people riding around on R1's who don't employ ***conscious*** countersteering.

Please forget the great **i lean my bike into a corner** phrase. You dont.
when you set your countersteering input, (either consciously, or unconsciously), the BIKE dials in the amount of lean angle required to get around the particular radius you set with the input. Your position on the bike just either upsets it (weight in wrong place) or doesn't upset it (weight in right place). Its not a case of body positioning improving the cornering of the bike, its a case of correct weighting and positioning not hindering the bikes natural progress as much. If bikes could think they would be muttering 'fcuking idiot' to themselves ALL THE TIME!!

Go on then give me a slating!!!:butt
 
#21 ·
Eyespy said:
I have personally ridden the No BS Bike, and I know many others who have also. No one who has ever ridden it, regardless of their talent or notoriety, has ever been able to steer it with body steering, peg steering, or whatever you want to call it, in the absence of the ability to apply countersteer inputs into the normal clip-ons. And I do mean no one.
Eyespy,

First of all, Andy Burnett, a Code instructor, has ridden the bike and used body steering techniques to steer the bike. Not in very controllable manner, however. He did think he could get it around Laguna Seca without crashing, but Keith wouldn't let him try.

All the "No BS Bike" proves is that you can't steer a motorcycle quickly or with control unless you countersteer. That is a far cry from proving that body steering does not work.

I can hop on my R1, take my hands off the clip-ons, and steer the bike all over the place. I can't steer it is quickly as I would like and I can't steer it as accurately as I need to, but I can certainly steer it. Heck, with a second set of clip-ons I think i could do even better.

Code's is the only school I know of that teaches against body steering. Again, Jason Pridmore, Freddie Spencer, and Kevin Schwanz all teach body steering techniques at their schools.

All you have to do is watch any Superbike or Moto GP race to see body steering in action.

I use body steering to help me turn and control my bike. I know it works. But I have to countersteer it to turn it quickly and accurately.

Scott
 
#22 ·
winders said:
Eyespy,

First of all, Andy Burnett, a Code instructor, has ridden the bike and used body steering techniques to steer the bike. Not in very controllable manner, however. He did think he could get it around Laguna Seca without crashing, but Keith wouldn't let him try.

All the "No BS Bike" proves is that you can't steer a motorcycle quickly or with control unless you countersteer. That is a far cry from proving that body steering does not work.

I can hop on my R1, take my hands off the clip-ons, and steer the bike all over the place. I can't steer it is quickly as I would like and I can't steer it as accurately as I need to, but I can certainly steer it. Heck, with a second set of clip-ons I think i could do even better.

Code's is the only school I know of that teaches against body steering. Again, Jason Pridmore, Freddie Spencer, and Kevin Schwanz all teach body steering techniques at their schools.

All you have to do is watch any Superbike or Moto GP race to see body steering in action.

I use body steering to help me turn and control my bike. I know it works. But I have to countersteer it to turn it quickly and accurately.

Scott
I never said that bodysteering does not exist, it just does not work effectively in the absence of countersteering. What you have described re Andy hardly constitutes real steering, but merely rudimentary changes in direction barely sufficient to avoid a crash. In that sense, you can call it steering, but I wouldn't. ANd Keith does not teach that there is no such thing as body steering as an absolute, but the No BS bike does speak for itself. This is inarguable. And I use bodysteering inputs as well, as secondary control inputs to countersteering. All the experts you have cited have to countersteer their bikes around the race course just like the rest.
 
#23 ·
Eyespy said:
I never said that bodysteering does not exist, it just does not work effectively in the absence of countersteering. What you have described re Andy hardly constitutes real steering, but merely rudimentary changes in direction barely sufficient to avoid a crash. In that sense, you can call it steering, but I wouldn't. ANd Keith does not teach that there is no such thing as body steering as an absolute, but the No BS bike does speak for itself. This is inarguable. And I use bodysteering inputs as well, as secondary control inputs to countersteering. All the experts you have cited have to countersteer their bikes around the race course just like the rest.
Then say that for heaven's sake. You made it sound like body steering did not work.

Code certainly teaches his students that body steering is a waste of time and should not be done. He says that peg weighting is only to help provide leverage for countersteering.

Code says that the "No BS Bike" shows that body steering is BS. Well, that is BS! He says that people can't get the bike to deviate its line. That's BS!

I use body steering techniques often without any countersteering inputs.

Code has a lot of good things to teach. Unfortunately, there is a lot bad physics and BS you have take while you drink the KoolAide.

Scott
 
#24 ·
winders said:
Then say that for heaven's sake. You made it sound like body steering did not work.

Code certainly teaches his students that body steering is a waste of time and should not be done. He says that peg weighting is only to help provide leverage for countersteering.

Code says that the "No BS Bike" shows that body steering is BS. Well, that is BS! He says that people can't get the bike to deviate its line. That's BS!

I use body steering techniques often without any countersteering inputs.

Code has a lot of good things to teach. Unfortunately, there is a lot bad physics and BS you have take while you drink the KoolAide.

Scott
That's not a totally accurate portrayal of Keith's stance on body steering. He teaches and demonstrates that the bike can be induced to crudely veer off it's line, but that in the absence of the permission to also apply countersteering control inputs to the bars, that's all that is accomplished. And that is what I did say. And the fact is that this is compellingly demonstrated by a ride on the No BS Bike. No more, no less.
 
#25 ·
guys I'm no rocket scientist, but I can't imagine that you change position on your bike in order to gain leverage to countersteer. Anyone could countersteer himself right into a lowside from any postion on the bike. It doesn't take that much force to countersteer. The reason one gets off the side of his bike is to change the center of mass of the motocycle. The force operating on you in a curve is a tangential force pulling you and your bike in a straight line tangent to the curve you are in. At any point in the turn there is a force pulling you out of it. Think of it as momentary sideways gravity. In order to balance this force so that you continue around the curve you must lean it opposite this force, so that gravity pulling your leaning bike down equals the force pulling you outward. The combination of these two forces it what keeps a turning motorcycle from falling over. In order to achive this force balance riders use both countersteer and body position to lean the bike and themselves in order to counteract tangential force. I one uses his body as a method of changing the center of mass of the bike he then needs less lean angle and countersteer in order to make the curve.

If you don't believe me about body postion try going around a curve laying on the outside of your motorcycle and just using countersteer. (film the attemp to while your at it)
 
#26 ·
Eyespy said:
That's not a totally accurate portrayal of Keith's stance on body steering.
Really? Here is a quote from Keith:

Now if you want to look a little further into this, what you will see is this; riders who still labor under the misconception that they body-steer are devoting themselves in a system that can do a great deal of actual harm. Firstly, it is seriously misguided to add an additional series of actions to the steering process.

Scott
 
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