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09 Motor work.

77K views 725 replies 68 participants last post by  Tim Radley 
#1 · (Edited)
#5 ·
Thanks for the pics and info. Very interesting.
 
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#7 ·
Do you know what oil filter the 09 uses. My break in is about done, so I need to change the oil.
 
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#19 ·
dunno about anyone else, but i think it's interesting that the inner two cylinders have a smaller flame size and more triangular shape than the outer 2... simply fuelling differences? (either that or i'm seeing things)
 
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#18 ·
Hey diel I got a chart from a NASCAR engineer friend many years back I once knew that tells you mathematically what an engines INTAKE lob center should be set at based 2 engine design parameters. That being the engines stroke, and 1/2 of the length of the connecting rod. Doesn't work for exhaust.

I don't have a scanner but beleive I can do a digital photo of the chart and can post that. Would be interesting to see how close it comes to your 09's specs. So if you know the stroke, can measure or guesstimate the length of the connecting rod and divide that by 2 should tell us..

FWIW I have been using 105 /105 on virtually every engine since my 1992 ZX7R Kawasaki superbike.

If nothing else at least I am now subscribed to this thread.
 
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#22 ·
Well, the head has been shipped along with my left nut to Tim Radley. He seems to like payment at the same time as work arrives. Was going to stick a dog turd in one of the ports but refrained as I don't want to start an international gross out war. Plus just knowing him I can tell you he would win hands down.
I don't know why you send it all the way to Tim, he just takes them down to the "jiffy port" on the corner & gets 'em done while he waits! :lol
 
#31 ·
While I was making Pix, here is one of my cool tools.

I use this to measure the quench clearance that many refer to as "squish". It is a Deck Height Bridge and dial indicator. The dial indicator is acurrate to a 1/2 of a thousand and is the only one I have ever seen like that. Not neccesary to be accurate more than .001 but is the only indicator I have ever seen that does that.

Diel knows this but for others that read this, this tool is used to measure how high the piston comes up in the bore at Top Dead Center. You place the bridge over the block, zero it out, and then rotate the crank. Ideally the outer 4 edges of the piston should never rise higher than the block. I actually prefer to see it about .005 inch from the top of the block. Thats POSITIVE deck height. You would add that # .005 to the thickness of the "compressed" head gasket and thats how much clearance you have from the pistons hitting the cylinder head which hangs over the bore.

How much diel choses to set his piston to head clearance I dont think he has said.

My rule of thumb is .040 inch for a 15,000 RPM motor and never less than .035 for any other motors.

However there are plenty of engine builders that will tell you they run it tighter.

I once had an engine with .030 piston to head clearance (0 deck height and a .030 thick head gasket) and it ran fine. The only thing keeping the pistons from hitting the cylinder head was the thickness of the head gaskets. But when I rebuilt it again I could see where the pistons were hitting the head. The Wiseco pistons have raised arrows on them pointing towards the exhaust and you could see where the arrows were hitting the cylinder head. That is about perfect.

And of course when using this tool you need to rock the piston fore and aft at TDC to get a accurate measurement. Becuase the piston will rock at TDC on the exhaust stroke only and that is when it usually hits.

JJ
 

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#75 ·
While I was making Pix, here is one of my cool tools.

I use this to measure the quench clearance that many refer to as "squish". It is a Deck Height Bridge and dial indicator. The dial indicator is acurrate to a 1/2 of a thousand and is the only one I have ever seen like that. Not neccesary to be accurate more than .001 but is the only indicator I have ever seen that does that.

Diel knows this but for others that read this, this tool is used to measure how high the piston comes up in the bore at Top Dead Center. You place the bridge over the block, zero it out, and then rotate the crank. Ideally the outer 4 edges of the piston should never rise higher than the block. I actually prefer to see it about .005 inch from the top of the block. Thats POSITIVE deck height. You would add that # .005 to the thickness of the "compressed" head gasket and thats how much clearance you have from the pistons hitting the cylinder head which hangs over the bore.

How much diel choses to set his piston to head clearance I dont think he has said.

My rule of thumb is .040 inch for a 15,000 RPM motor and never less than .035 for any other motors.

However there are plenty of engine builders that will tell you they run it tighter.

I once had an engine with .030 piston to head clearance (0 deck height and a .030 thick head gasket) and it ran fine. The only thing keeping the pistons from hitting the cylinder head was the thickness of the head gaskets. But when I rebuilt it again I could see where the pistons were hitting the head. The Wiseco pistons have raised arrows on them pointing towards the exhaust and you could see where the arrows were hitting the cylinder head. That is about perfect.

And of course when using this tool you need to rock the piston fore and aft at TDC to get a accurate measurement. Becuase the piston will rock at TDC on the exhaust stroke only and that is when it usually hits.

JJ
lol . i just discovered this method of measuring squish here:
http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182384&page=448

:lol

where will the piston rock on the exhaust stroke? (closer or further from the head, and why...:) )

and btw ,i have a dial gauge with 0.00005 inch accuracy :drunk:
 

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#32 ·
suscribed loving this one cant wait to see how the head work turns out for u.:secret:
 
#33 ·
The poor mans way of measuring squish "quench clearance" is to put 4 strips of solder on top of the piston, bolt the head on with a used head gasket, rotate the engine by hand and the solder will "squish". Take head off and measure the amount the solder is squished is your piston to head clearance. I find this is pretty accurate most of the time. Mainly concerned with the clearance fore and aft as the piston will rock on the connecting rod fore and aft but not side to side.

Most production engines come with more than enough squish (got those warranties to consider), so engine builders tighten this up and it increases compression. This is usually done by going to a thinner head gasket if available, or milling a few thousands off the top of the block. Thats easier to do if the block is not part of the crankcase.

You can also use thinner base gaskets (under the block) if the engine has a removable block. I think HONDA went back to a removable block on the 08/09 1KRR. I have no idea about R1's.

I recommend squish (piston to head clearance) be no tigher than .035", ever, but others will testify they run tighter with no issues. .035" is the # I use.

Maybe diel can tell us what it was on his R1 both before and after reassembly.

JJ
 
#35 ·
I am no motor building pro, but i always shoot for .027-.030 P-H. Last motor i put together was at .024, but it has aftermarket rods in it.

I use the solder method for figuring squish myself. I take four measurments per piston add them together and then divide by four to get my actual clearance.

I built an 04 G1K motor that has the pistons above the deck. Only motor i have seen like that, and only like that because the people who bored the cylinders took allot off the deck. Still running to this day. 178hp 14 to 1 compression on pump gas.
 
#36 ·
I am no motor building pro, but i always shoot for .027-.030 P-H. Last motor i put together was at .024, but it has aftermarket rods in it.

I use the solder method for figuring squish myself. I take four measurments per piston add them together and then divide by four to get my actual clearance.

I built an 04 G1K motor that has the pistons above the deck. Only motor i have seen like that, and only like that because the people who bored the cylinders took allot off the deck. Still running to this day. 178hp 14 to 1 compression on pump gas.
Makes you wonder about the 4 piece solder method though, for example if you measure 22,22,32,32 the average comes out to 27. Should you worry about the 22? If you had an engine with a bit looser piston to bore clearance (like the earlier R1's) would the pistons hit with that measurement...
 
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#38 ·
Very true. I usually use some copper tubing slid over the cylinder head bolts with some washers and tourqe the block down to the cases, then measure the deck height with the gauge.

I have gotten away with .030" .75mm quench clearance and found that to be about perfect but personally thats as tight as I will have it. I just don't think the risk is worth any potential gain to go tighter on squish. But thats just my preference and what works for me may not for someone else.

JJ
 
#37 ·
My 03's at just over 28thou tightest pot. I intend to bring that down slightly at some point if it proves itself to be reliable.

I don't think that 35 thou will do that much for a motor personally.

Good thread diel11, thanks for starting it and good luck with it all :thumbup
 
#39 ·
Several things:-

I've run one modern bike engine that runs to 14krpm to 0.018" (0.45mm) squish without issue.
Solder has some "spring" to it so you are prone to false measurements.
Measuring deck height assumes the top of the piston is flat and perpendicular, which is not always true. I have run many motors tight and found lets say the right hand squish of 3 pistons just kissing then the left hand of the 4th also. wtf is that all about?

I would not worry about the method, as long as you have worked out how tight you can go with your method and keep using it you will be fine. My minimum squish at my method might be 020 yours might be 025. Both might be kissing head. neither is wrong.
 
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#40 ·
Yes in my experience the shelf piston kits have much looser compression height than stock. But i guess you get what you pay for most of the time. In the same way one of my ported cylinder heads costs twice as much as the competition but takes 6 times longer to do ......
 
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