Yamaha R1 Forum: YZF-R1 Forums banner

PCV Flat spot, suggestions needed please.

31K views 221 replies 44 participants last post by  chrismpero 
#1 ·
Installed a PCV. Installation went smoothly. I have my reservations regarding the TPS crimper, but owell. The very first ride I took after installing the PCV, I noticed a flat spot. I have pinpointed, I believe, the area. It appears to be at ~ 4800 to 5200 RPM. Never had an issue prior to the PCV being installed. The flat spot rears its ugly head in gear 2, 3, 4 at least. If you goose the throttle before 4800, you can roll right through the flat spot and never hit it. If you goose it in that range though = significant stutter. This is turning out to be a problem, as when in traffic, bursting inbetween cars, etc., it turns out that 4800 - 5200 is where I usually am. Is this issue merely a matter of going in and smoothing out the map I installed, or is there another more serious issue? The map I use was meant for Yoshi slipons and aftermarket/stock air filter. Thanks in advance for any help!
 
#66 ·
Update for everyone:

We have adapted the Ducati O2 controller to work on the R1. We have had a local customer here put over 500 miles on it already and he states it runs excellent. He is not using Auto tune yet as he needs to weld a bung on his new exhaust. I rode our test bike last night with Auto tune and the new controller and so far so good.

Let me explain the O2 controllers a bit:

The current R6 & R1 controllers spit out a constant signal to the ECU to emulate the O2 sensor. This is supposed to keep the ECU thinking the sensor is intact and working but does not tell the ECU to make any changes. With this unit you can map the entire RPM and throttle ranges with the Power Commander.

The O2 controller we are working on is much more advanced. It spits out an offset of the stock O2 sensor which will keep the closed loop area at a given AFR. We are probably going to set these up to stay at 13.6:1 AFR but it can be adjusted if necessary.
With this unit, since it basically auto tunes itself in the closed loop area, you will not be able to use the Power Commander to adjust the closed loop area. So when using this unit you will have all zeros in the 0-15% columns and up to 6000rpm. In this area the controller will map itself to the set AFR. When using Auto tune you will just set the Target AFR in this area to zeros and let it tune the rest. It would be best to put the bike in Advanced gear mode so that Auto tune will map the low end in first gear if desired.

We hope to be shipping these O2 controllers by the end of the month. I should have a couple more to test next week which I will send to a couple people on this forum.

I will keep the info coming! Thanks for your patience.
 
#70 ·
From what I have read the problems are only with Auto tune as the unit is basically chasing its tail. If someone feels they want to try the new one we will replace it.

Lets not jump to any conclusions yet as I still want to get some test time on this unit before we call it good. Definitely don't want to go thru this again!!!
 
#72 ·
From what I have read the problems are only with Auto tune as the unit is basically chasing its tail.

Im having the same issue in the rpm range and excessive running rich that has been discussed but I dont have the auto tune installed yet.

I guess thats what has me confused. I wasn't having these issues when I was running it without the pc5.

Im trying some of the ideas chavezy has mentioned and then see what happens.

the map Im running is the yoshi 3/4 and aftermarket air filter. Im about to load the changes that he mentioned and ride it tomorrow and see what happens.
 
#71 · (Edited)
I would be up for a replacement please, I don't like the idea of running 14.7/1 AFR in closed loop, and i'm forever changing the exhaust hence why I bought the autotune.

i'm also guessing from your reply that the the yamaha ecu is not happy with the fixed input from the o2 controller and either looks for a change or prompts one itself by richening the AFR occassionaly? a bit like a 'watchdog' on a computer system?
 
#73 ·
I would be very interested in a replacement o2 controller. I have the autotune and I would love for it to work correctly. Thanks for the updates and time you guys are putting toward this. Also can we use the auto tune on a constant acceleration in 2,5,10,15? Kind of like dyno pulls with no deceleration. Then after the trims are set to the correct AFR, set the AFR table to 0% on 2,5,10,15. Would that work in setting the correct AFR for the lower throttle positions after I zero out the AFR table? Can I then keep the Wideband o2 sensor in to adjust the upper throttle positions. Thanks
 
#76 ·
chuckboy281 - The problem is not just on decel so I don't think your idea will help you. The problem that we have seen with the bike going rich does not happen at all times or we would never be able to develop a map and would never have released the unit. If you can get a good ride in with the Auto tune without the system "glitching" then you could accept the trims, zero out the closed loop area for your target AFR and let the system continue to monitor the rest of the area.

Piper - That is your call. If you should experience the problem we would of course take care of you with whatever the solution happens to be. You would be a good candidate to try the settings in the map that I posted earlier (post 63). You would not be using the controller that would come in the kit.

mikef4uk - you will definitely get a unit when we have one. I appreciate your patience and you have been in this post from the beginning without "taking the piss out of us" as I think you say!!
 
#81 ·
mikef4uk - you will definitely get a unit when we have one. I appreciate your patience and you have been in this post from the beginning without "taking the piss out of us" as I think you say!!

I appreciate that, thanks, unfortunately the Winter is nearly upon us, so 'testing' is getting limites, temps in the 10/11c yesterday, I have been running around with 0-6000rpm and 0-15% zeroed out on the target AFR whilst swapping exhausts, baffles etc (I have race and normal akra baffles, 28 and 36mm dia)

The autotune works with these parameters and the +/- set to 10% I have yet to hit the 10% + or -, and its noticeable that most of the trims that vary are in the same area's whichever exhaust is fitted, but varying in %'s

I also try the 20, 40 60 'guess' at throttle and just keep it pinned, but the 100% is fun:sneaky
 
#77 ·
Not sure if I should start another post for this info or not but I'm sure the moderator can move it if so! Just some data for you guys that may or may not have been posted before.

The MODE selector on your dash.
A and STD are exactly the same at 100% grip throttle. If you put in B mode the throttle blades will only open up to 80% throttle in any gear.

What I found interesting was that if your grip TPS is at 50% throttle in mode A the blade will open to 70% and in STD mode it will open to 60% in any given gear.

Has anyone posted the correlation of what the bar graph for grip TPS is in relation to actualy percentage? If not I will do this test today. This could be very beneficial for you guys with Auto tune. If you knew that 3 bars on your dash say equalled 10% in the PCV software you could go out on the rode and hold it at the given bars and let the bike spool up thru the RPM range. With this the Auto tune would build a map much faster. Just a thought!
 
#79 ·
So from what I read is that since the glitch ruins the autotune trims down low by radically changing them which is happening to allot of us. Now the new o2 controller will do the tuning on the low end and the autotuner will tune the upper rpm and throttles. Correctly though.

Thanks and let us know as soon as they are available.
 
#85 ·
If we have the PCV and autotune, once we connect the stock o2 sensor then the autotune will not be able to do any tuning since it it isn't directly hooked up to the exhaust. So what is the point of having it if I am unable to use it correctly. This is frustrating. Also you (dynojet) are fixing this so we will be able to hook everything up as advertised and it work correctly, thats where the new o2 controller is coming in right? We all very much appreciate the hard work. With the new o2 controller would we keep the wideband o2 sensor connected and it will work like it should?
 
#86 ·
Chuckyboy, you should skim over the previous 4 pages of posts on this thread, DJR stated it was "not" an Autotune issue, it's the 02 controller. So basically, if you have the autotune installed, zero out the target AFR's in the 0-15% TPS and up to 6K RPM, this will allow the autotune to only attempt to make adjustments in the upper RPM ranges and over 15% TPS. I have been having good luck using the Dynojet PCV 02 controller and having zeroed out all 0-5% TPS and 0-6000 RPM, however, I'm not using the autotune system.
 
#87 ·
Yeah I have been keeping tabs on this thread for awhile and have read it all. I do understand that its the o2 controller too. Dynojet is recommending plugging the stock o2 sensor back in for now and the zero trick. I was just verifying that the stock o2 sensor will bypass the autotune till the bug is fixed. I will just have to wait till I get a replacement o2 controller then test it. I am still experimenting with my autotune. I love the concept and personally like to tinker with these things. Thanks and I will keep monitoring the situation. When the o2 controllers are available, I am very very interesting in these.
 
#88 ·
I haven't gone into any detail about his as I want to make sure this is the solution. If we go the route of the new O2 controller your 0-15% columns and up to 6000rpm will be closed loop by this controller. All other areas can be auto tuned assuming you have the Auto tune module. To accomplish this you will have to have the stock sensor in the exhaust AND the auto tune sensor. You will still zero out your target AFR table in the closed loop area where the controller is taking care of.
 
#89 ·
I haven't gone into any detail about his as I want to make sure this is the solution. If we go the route of the new O2 controller your 0-15% columns and up to 6000rpm will be closed loop by this controller. All other areas can be auto tuned assuming you have the Auto tune module. To accomplish this you will have to have the stock sensor in the exhaust AND the auto tune sensor. You will still zero out your target AFR table in the closed loop area where the controller is taking care of.
Are you proposing that we need TWO ports in the exhaust to install the stock O2 sensor AND the Autotune O2 sensor?
 
#91 ·
I dont know, but maybe if this is a good time to ask.

It appears it is universally accepted that the Pair valves must be blocked off or disabled in some manner in order for the Wideband or sniffer at a tunning link shop uses in order to obtain a correct A/F reading.

OK, if this is so, (and I dont doubt it) how come that doesnt affect the A'F reading the stock 02 sensor is seeing? You would think Yamaha would know what all the A/F's are based on throttle position and RPM's ect, and designed the ECU and stock 02 sensor to recognize such.

Seems to me once the pair is blocked or disabled the stock 02 sensor is seeing readings different than what it was meant to see by the engineers who designed it.

So, just how much blocking the pair affects the stock 02 sensor's reading?


One of the greatest engineers of all time once said;

The more complicated you make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up!
 
#93 ·
OK, if this is so, (and I dont doubt it) how come that doesnt affect the A'F reading the stock 02 sensor is seeing? You would think Yamaha would know what all the A/F's are based on throttle position and RPM's ect, and designed the ECU and stock 02 sensor to recognize such.
...because the ECU is in control of the PAIR valve and sets a flag to disregard all 02 readings (skip the function entirely actually) while the valve is open.....
 
#95 ·
Couldn't the software be program to disregard the spike or radical afr. My only problem is that it fully richens the map sometimes in the lower %. I really hope there will be another fix other than drilling another hole in my evo kit. I am not understanding how if the o2 controller sends a dummy signal to the ecu. Even if the ecu checks the reliabilty of the signal I don't understand how that relates to the autotune over richening or over leaning for no reason. Can the Autotune be programed to use viable information, instead of chasing its tail? Since more than likely when providing fuel it would provide +20 then in 250 rpm take away -20. Almost like giving it common sense.
 
#96 · (Edited)
My take ( DJR may put me right here) with the autotune working in the closed loop area is the yamaha ecu performs some sort of 'watchdog' activity like computer networks do, (they basically say ''hello'' and the other pc's reply) I think the ecu tests the responce of the o2 sensor i.e goes rich or weak on purpose looking for the o2 sensor to respond accordingly...........which it doesn't get.

Without the autotune it's not noticeable, with it, the autotune responds in the opposite direction making a mess of the map.

The autotune works fine outside the closed loop area
 
#97 ·
Im thinking of running the akra evo kit. With all the issues with the AT I think i'll skip it (drilling an extra hole is probably not an option considering i would have to find someone who does titanium welding) What would be the best suggestion with just using a PCV? After going through this thread my understanding is.

1) use the stock 02 sensor instead of the PCV's included one.
2) 0 out the map in 2 - 5% TPS up till 6k RPM

Are any of you running the akra evo kit with just PCV and no AT?
 
#98 · (Edited)
DJR is working on a 'box' that will trick the o2 sensor/ecu into delivering a richer A/F in the closed loop area (0-6000rpm and 0-15% throttle), one thought I had was to do the following if welding a further boss is a non starter.

1) Fit the original supplied o2 controller, zero out the closed loop area.

2) Fit the A/T unit, zero out the target A/F for the closed loop area.

3) Let the A/T construct the fuel map and 'accept' it but watch out for any 'unusual' spikes in the map, like a column of -12% with a +15% in the middle of it, I suggest any odd spikes are altered to the surrounding area's figures.

4) Remove the A/T, refit the std o2 sensor and the 'new' when released box.

5) Job done.

OR, fit the 'new' box, visit a dyno centre like we used to:)


PS, Just an add on to my post, The A/T is working faultlesly now, after every ride I look at the trims and as a rule they are in the +/- 1 or 2 I now plan to alter the min and max allowable alterations to 4 or 5% and just forget about it as it's working well ( I have the closed loop area zeroed out on both PCV and A/T
 
#100 ·
mikef4uk, now that you have the A/T working at the high end are you going to leave it in with the O2 controller and the closed loop area zeroed out?

Has anyone else done the test with the PCV hooked up and the O2 controller replaced with the stock O2 sensor and the closed loop area zeroed out?
 
#104 ·
For the moment yes, i'm letting the AT build it's map in all other area's, it does a good job but before and after I 'accept' the trims I look for any that are out of place both horizontally and vertically (i.e 2, 3, 6, 5, -7, 6, 3, etc) and alter those to be more in line with the surrounding numbers.

Once I am happy with the map I'll wait for the 'modded' controller then allow the bike to close loop on the original o2 sensor, i'm not sure whether to then leave the AT off or weld in the 'bung'
 
#101 ·
Still waiting on a couple parts. I have been riding our bike every day with good results. My current setup is like I posted earlier. I have the stock sensor connected with the values of 15-20 in the closed loop area. I also have Auto tune target set at 13.2 in the closed loop area and the thing runs awesome. Has anyone else tried this? Very simple solution so far. Need more testing to know for sure though.
 
#102 ·
Still waiting on a couple parts. I have been riding our bike every day with good results. My current setup is like I posted earlier. I have the stock sensor connected with the values of 15-20 in the closed loop area. I also have Auto tune target set at 13.2 in the closed loop area and the thing runs awesome. Has anyone else tried this? Very simple solution so far. Need more testing to know for sure though.
Is this for a completely stock setup? About the 15-20 values in the closed loop area...are you referring to the chart you posted earlier using advanced gear mode? I couldn't find any advanced gear mode settings in the software. I would like to try this setup if you can help to clarify this for me. Are you able to post the tables you are using for the PCV and AT?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top