My 12 R1 Absolutely Will Not Start In Cold - Page 2 - Yamaha R1 Forum: YZF-R1 Forums
09-14 R1 Mechanical Help Mechanical and Critical Issues for the 09-14 R1

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post #21 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tad158 View Post
And don't mess with the throttle when starting, it is not a corroborated bike, all it does is confuse the ECU
I realize you guys are trying to help and I'm not trying to act pissy by repeating this, but I don't know how many more times I can say it or how much more clear I can be about it.... the bike will never start if I don't give it throttle when temps are below 48-50 degrees.. particularly in the colder temps. I absolutely have to do it or I'd kill my battery trying to start it every single time I tried to start it in 48 degree temps. Yes... in theory you should not have to manually give it throttle on a properly tuned fuel injected vehicle that has no problems with it... regardless of temperature, but this is just not the case on my R1. I even have to give my SV1000 a little throttle to start that in temps below 20 degrees sometimes, but I can usually tell when I have to do so based on how it reacts to the first attempt to start it without using throttle.

Giving my R1 throttle while cranking with ambient temps between 34-48 degrees seems to get it to start most of the time. Not doing so, it won't start.... EVER... so suggesting not to do so is a bad suggestion if my only alternative is to crank it until the battery is dead and then get a cab home or walk 12 miles home at 4 AM in 20-40 degree weather after I get out of work.

I'll try to look into the diagnostic mode suggestions once the current spell of rainy weather has subsided. I can't seem to find any text-based instructions on how to get into diagnostic mode on my bike online, but I did find a youtube video that I'll watch when I get home.

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-2012 Yamaha R1 50th Aniv. Edition, (RIP 11-25-2018)
-2007 Suzuki SV1000S
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post #22 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 07:53 PM
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https://www.r1-forum.com/forums/4-mec...uals-here.html

Just down load the service manual.....and read it.....I have never once had to touch the throttle to start by bike even below 40 deg.....


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post #23 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
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https://www.r1-forum.com/forums/4-mec...uals-here.html

Just down load the service manual.....and read it.....I have never once had to touch the throttle to start by bike even below 40 deg.....
Aren't you using your custom tune though?

I don't have a Flashtune or a custom tune on my bike, but was thinking of getting one if it may yield me some tuning options to counteract this $hitty weather starting conditions. I could make a fuel map with a richer first row in the table (800 RPM i think it is?) that would "Hopefully" alleviate the starting problems, and only use it from September to April if it worked.

-2013 Yamaha R1 Rapid Red
-2012 Yamaha R1 50th Aniv. Edition, (RIP 11-25-2018)
-2007 Suzuki SV1000S

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post #24 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 08:01 PM
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I put nearly 2000 miles on my bike before I flashed my 09....and I never had to use the throttle the bike to start it, even in cold weather.


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post #25 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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I put nearly 2000 miles on my bike before I flashed my 09....and I never had to use the throttle the bike to start it, even in cold weather.
Wasn't the factory fuel map/tune different from '09-11 in comparison to '12-14 though?

I thought I remember comparing the two of them in Flashtune a few months ago and the maps being noticeably different.

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post #26 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 08:23 PM
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not really in the start up region.....Yes they are different but mostly in the cruising areas....the 12-14 is junk in that range....My image is basically stock in the idle/start up range....

Either way....a F-T interface plus an M4 y-pipe does amazing things for that bike....


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post #27 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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not really in the start up region.....Yes they are different but mostly in the cruising areas....the 12-14 is junk in that range....My image is basically stock in the idle/start up range....

Either way....a F-T interface plus an M4 y-pipe does amazing things for that bike....
I almost bought an M4 mid-pipe in August but decided to wait until next season. Did you notice huge power gains with the pipe and tune or just overall better rideability?

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-2012 Yamaha R1 50th Aniv. Edition, (RIP 11-25-2018)
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post #28 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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not really in the start up region.....Yes they are different but mostly in the cruising areas....the 12-14 is junk in that range....My image is basically stock in the idle/start up range....

Either way....a F-T interface plus an M4 y-pipe does amazing things for that bike....
What's the altitude where you live? I'm pretty much at between Sea Level to 80 ft above. Probably need a richer mixture here to operate in cold temperatures in comparison to those who might live in higher altitudes.

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post #29 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 09:01 PM
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Yes, and I live in the DC area....no problems for you....I have also tested at higher altitudes, and found that the ECU does a good job accounting for that. We have even tested in the Denver area with someone with AT, and the AFRs were right where I was tuning for....so that is not an issue either....

The ECU does a better job of dealing with fueling than people give it credit for....

Something is out of whack with your bike if you are having thins much issues with starting, as it is definitely not a common issue with the x-planker.


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post #30 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-03-2015, 04:11 AM
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post #31 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 07:43 PM
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I also have to crack my throttle a little bit when starting at times. Usually when it's 50ish and below. Only mods are a y-pipe. 12k miles on a 2012.
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post #32 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 07:53 PM
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You have a Y-pipe without a tune?


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#158
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post #33 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 07:58 PM
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Yes. Haven't had the chance to send it out yet. I've been riding conservatively as its been cool here anyways..
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post #34 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by partyman66 View Post
I realize you guys are trying to help and I'm not trying to act pissy by repeating this, but I don't know how many more times I can say it or how much more clear I can be about it.... the bike will never start if I don't give it throttle when temps are below 48-50 degrees.. particularly in the colder temps. I absolutely have to do it or I'd kill my battery trying to start it every single time I tried to start it in 48 degree temps. Yes... in theory you should not have to manually give it throttle on a properly tuned fuel injected vehicle that has no problems with it... regardless of temperature, but this is just not the case on my R1. I even have to give my SV1000 a little throttle to start that in temps below 20 degrees sometimes, but I can usually tell when I have to do so based on how it reacts to the first attempt to start it without using throttle.

Giving my R1 throttle while cranking with ambient temps between 34-48 degrees seems to get it to start most of the time. Not doing so, it won't start.... EVER... so suggesting not to do so is a bad suggestion if my only alternative is to crank it until the battery is dead and then get a cab home or walk 12 miles home at 4 AM in 20-40 degree weather after I get out of work.

I'll try to look into the diagnostic mode suggestions once the current spell of rainy weather has subsided. I can't seem to find any text-based instructions on how to get into diagnostic mode on my bike online, but I did find a youtube video that I'll watch when I get home.
If it's any consolation @partyman66 I've had to give my bike a bit of throttle pretty much every time I start it. It's a 2012. And I live in Sydney, Australia, and I have to give it a little bit of throttle when it's been sitting in the sun at Bondi beach for an hour or so.

Mine does the same symptoms as yours if I don't give it just a touch of throttle - pops a few times and flattens the battery.

It's like that saying - what's correct in theory often doesn't work in practice. No matter how many times someone tells me I shouldn't use any throttle, it doesn't change the concrete reality, that my ****ing bike won't start without a bit of throttle.

Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement.
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post #35 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 08:07 PM
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Then that is you reason it wont start....and don't mess with the throttle during the start cycle.....if you have to do that then your fuel maps are messed up.


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#158
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post #36 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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If it's any consolation @partyman66 I've had to give my bike a bit of throttle pretty much every time I start it. It's a 2012. And I live in Sydney, Australia, and I have to give it a little bit of throttle when it's been sitting in the sun at Bondi beach for an hour or so.

Mine does the same symptoms as yours if I don't give it just a touch of throttle - pops a few times and flattens the battery.

It's like that saying - what's correct in theory often doesn't work in practice. No matter how many times someone tells me I shouldn't use any throttle, it doesn't change the concrete reality, that my ****ing bike won't start without a bit of throttle.
Yeah... haha. It's definitely weird how you have to give it throttle, but in cold, I could have the thing hooked up to a giant 5000 Amp/Hour battery and crank it on and off for an hour straight in cold weather without throttle and it probably would not start.

At least it's somewhat consoling to me to hear that I'm not the only one whose X-plane R1 does this in the cold. I'd venture to guess that there probably aren't that many people out there who ride an R1 in 35 degree or colder weather, so this issue probably doesn't get the attention that it maybe should. I count 3 of us here in this thread alone who have this problem, plus two that I saw on youtube videos.

Since the problem gets worse and worse the colder it gets and can be rectified in 35-49 degree temps by giving the bike throttle when starting it, I feel convinced that it's just a tuning/mixture problem. Hopefully something that can be worked out with a custom Flashtune fuel map with richer low RPM settings.

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-2012 Yamaha R1 50th Aniv. Edition, (RIP 11-25-2018)
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post #37 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 08:33 PM
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Then that is you reason it wont start....and don't mess with the throttle during the start cycle.....if you have to do that then your fuel maps are messed up.
So let me get this straight - the one thing that makes my bike start... is the reason it won't start?

So what you're saying is: crank the bike until the battery goes flat? Don't do the one thing that reliably starts it every single time!

Jus' pray to Jayzus; pray and believe... don't touch that throttle! Praaaaay and believeeeee...

I'll leave the praying & believing to you. I'm gonna use my powers of observation & problem solving to inspect & adapt, and start my bike.

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post #38 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 08:36 PM
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I am saying fix the problem rather than putting a bandaid on it...as a properly tuned/running bike won't do that.


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#158
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Mods: Custom Fender Eliminator, Custom Rear Res. Bracket, Custom Clutch Sliders, Spiegler Rennsport SS F/R Brake Lines, Driven Clip-ons, Domino MotoGP Grips, Zero Gravity Smoke DB Windscreen, M4 Y-Pipe, Vance&Hines CS One cans, Shogun Sliders, Graves Stacks, F-T custom image w/Bazzaz QS sensor, Galespeed VRC MC, CL Braking Pads, RaceDAC Data Logger, RaceTech Springs and G3S Rear Shock, F1Composites bodywork.

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post #39 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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I am saying fix the problem rather than putting a bandaid on it...as a properly tuned/running bike won't do that.
What's up with the shit-ass factory tune?

I can't see any excuse that Yamaha can't get this right in the stock tune. My bike's only breathing mod is Akropovic Slip-On cans. That should have zero impact on cold starting since there is pretty much no back pressure impact at that low of an RPM from the mufflers on a stock bike anyways so the operational impact at that point should be moot.

I did notice that in Flashtune there is a mixture vs Engine Coolant Temperature table... however, everything I've read seems to indicate that this table is only used when you have your ECU Flashtune-configured to use the high-idle setting. If you don't have high idle enabled, supposedly it doesn't use that table at all.

I'm sure Yamaha themselves has something in their ECU that does use a ECT-Mixture table, but maybe the guys at Flashtune just never implemented it for us to be able to modify that.

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post #40 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 03:35 AM
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What's up with the shit-ass factory tune?

I can't see any excuse that Yamaha can't get this right in the stock tune. My bike's only breathing mod is Akropovic Slip-On cans. That should have zero impact on cold starting since there is pretty much no back pressure impact at that low of an RPM from the mufflers on a stock bike anyways so the operational impact at that point should be moot.

I did notice that in Flashtune there is a mixture vs Engine Coolant Temperature table... however, everything I've read seems to indicate that this table is only used when you have your ECU Flashtune-configured to use the high-idle setting. If you don't have high idle enabled, supposedly it doesn't use that table at all.

I'm sure Yamaha themselves has something in their ECU that does use a ECT-Mixture table, but maybe the guys at Flashtune just never implemented it for us to be able to modify that.

Yamaha got lots of stuff wrong, it has crappy on off throttle response in stock form too....

You are incorrect in the above information.

It is a timing adjustment map in the way it is currently implemented. It uses it if it on or off. But when it is off it goes into different idle logic when it hits about 120 deg F. The ECT vs RPM map is not just for a high idle. I can use it to make my bike idle anywhere between 1100 and 2000 RPM.

There is also some input from the MAP vs RPM map, as that plus the normal TPS vs RPM map are what control the fuel mixture in that range. It is a balancing act to make it idle right. Epically when the bike flows more air than normal.


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#158
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Mods: Custom Fender Eliminator, Custom Rear Res. Bracket, Custom Clutch Sliders, Spiegler Rennsport SS F/R Brake Lines, Driven Clip-ons, Domino MotoGP Grips, Zero Gravity Smoke DB Windscreen, M4 Y-Pipe, Vance&Hines CS One cans, Shogun Sliders, Graves Stacks, F-T custom image w/Bazzaz QS sensor, Galespeed VRC MC, CL Braking Pads, RaceDAC Data Logger, RaceTech Springs and G3S Rear Shock, F1Composites bodywork.

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