FTECU Autotune? - Page 8 - Yamaha R1 Forum: YZF-R1 Forums
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post #141 of 152 (permalink) Old 11-29-2016, 07:40 PM
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Chuck posted that for you Pete........ it basically means in plain English "love or leave it, we are not Burger King so you can't have it your way".
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post #142 of 152 (permalink) Old 11-29-2016, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad158 View Post
I think you are missing some of Pete's points....the fueling is just one aspect of a good ECU image. There is also the throttle map, timing, engine breaking settings, TC settings, and so on....these are also places that graves have likely invested time and R&D. So if you just start with a "base" image you might not benefit from that R&D.....
Nope, looks like you are failing to gather what I am stating.

I am saying that the system in which "he" (pete) wants access is a minor part of the whole system sold to him. ALL of what you posted except timing is specific to the rider. No matter if the bike is "tuned" or not, those parameters are things specific to the rider. For a engine mapping "imagine", the system only needs to tune a few items.

Intake air (funnels) length
Spark advance
Fuel

Spark and air in are up to you, the fuel is now an "automatic" system. Add a little timing, see what happens. Mess with the length of the air funnels, see what happens. Dont want to? Then take it to a "tuner".... Who will do exactly that. Mess with fuel and ignition tables.

Asking for 10 acres, when you barely know what to do with 1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete165 View Post
So I would be willing to try that, but I dont know what I'm doing with it.
Then learn. Rather be spoon fed the answers wouldnt you? Make life easy? Want some one to follow you to the track and fix your bike for you as well? Get over it. If you teach yourself, you WILL be better off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete165 View Post
Plus I'm willing to bet that the Graves and SBK tunes do a lot more than adjust the throttle.
The free graves tune? I doubt it has much into it. Based on results posted by people across the country. Looks like the map is a minor fuel trimming, and intake air tuning based on "known" yamaha engine parameters.

The sbk tune? I doubt it would be really "tight" to the engine. As fuel and air quality is WIDELY different across the country. So a narrower tune is probably all you are buying. Probably more air side to give better response.

Automotive tuning has made me very aware of the limitations of "can" tunes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete165 View Post
I don't know what target AFR's to set on the unrestricted. They'd be guesses unless I threw it on a dyno.
Target AFR for a running engine is basically the same and information of this nature can be found VERY easy on the internet. Which is why so many "tuners" are popping up all over the place like zits on a 16 year olds face.

Also, with out changes to the ignition, fuel changes will only take you so far. Still need a dyno to take full advantage of the engine's new found power. But that is only 1/3 of the equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yammyduc View Post
Hope this clarifies.
Yes, it clarifies that pete and yourself would like to take the easy way to find a good set up for your bike. So in reality never have a bike that is unique to YOU. Thus never really getting the full value from your bike.

Since that is the case, please return your bike to stock and ride as yamaha sold it to you as that is the limit of the bike you require.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete165 View Post
I'm thinking I may just dump the FTECU all together and go with powercommander or woolich, and have it tuned by my dyno guy. I got far more support going that route on the gixxer.
You should do that with your gixxer.... Wait, arent you working with an R1? Odd....

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete165 View Post
All we really need is for the trim tables to be unlocked....If they could unlock just the trim tables, none of this would be an issue.
Actually none of this is an issue. For if not any of the above reasons, but for the reason that YOU did not pay for that tune. You want to see the TUNE, pay for it from a tuner. People in the field of automotive/motorcycle repair/upgrading DO NOT WORK FOR FREE. You are asking for some one to give you something for free they worked for.

Would YOU go to your job, work all day, for free? How about 365 times?

You are failing to see the actual question YOU are asking because YOU are not getting your way.





**edit: When in my uniform, getting parts for my own car (usually) or motorcycle, I am often stopped and asked questions on how to repair things or diagnose them. I am paid for my services and usually walk away. Which leads to "that was rude" or "what an a$$(*le".. Resulting in the above response. I can fix anything with an engine. Cars, motorcycles, boats and your lawn mower. But will NEVER EVER do it for free. I am a professional mechanic/technician, and my time/experience is MONEY. No money, get out. Have a happy holidays.
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Last edited by 99ej6T; 11-29-2016 at 08:56 PM.
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post #143 of 152 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99ej6T View Post
Which leads to "that was rude" or "what an a$$(*le"..
yep. exactly
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post #144 of 152 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 08:37 AM
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Truth be told you could throw the base unrestricted map on a dyno and $6-700 later you'd have a perfect cylinder by cylinder tune. Not really all that expensive or complicated tbh.

The bike is faster than I am...
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post #145 of 152 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99ej6T View Post
Nope, looks like you are failing to gather what I am stating.

I am saying that the system in which "he" (pete) wants access is a minor part of the whole system sold to him. ALL of what you posted except timing is specific to the rider. No matter if the bike is "tuned" or not, those parameters are things specific to the rider. For a engine mapping "imagine", the system only needs to tune a few items.

Intake air (funnels) length
Spark advance
Fuel

Spark and air in are up to you, the fuel is now an "automatic" system. Add a little timing, see what happens. Mess with the length of the air funnels, see what happens. Dont want to? Then take it to a "tuner".... Who will do exactly that. Mess with fuel and ignition tables.

Asking for 10 acres, when you barely know what to do with 1.
Then learn. Rather be spoon fed the answers wouldnt you? Make life easy? Want some one to follow you to the track and fix your bike for you as well? Get over it. If you teach yourself, you WILL be better off.

The free graves tune? I doubt it has much into it. Based on results posted by people across the country. Looks like the map is a minor fuel trimming, and intake air tuning based on "known" yamaha engine parameters.

The sbk tune? I doubt it would be really "tight" to the engine. As fuel and air quality is WIDELY different across the country. So a narrower tune is probably all you are buying. Probably more air side to give better response.

Automotive tuning has made me very aware of the limitations of "can" tunes.

Target AFR for a running engine is basically the same and information of this nature can be found VERY easy on the internet. Which is why so many "tuners" are popping up all over the place like zits on a 16 year olds face.

Also, with out changes to the ignition, fuel changes will only take you so far. Still need a dyno to take full advantage of the engine's new found power. But that is only 1/3 of the equation.

Yes, it clarifies that pete and yourself would like to take the easy way to find a good set up for your bike. So in reality never have a bike that is unique to YOU. Thus never really getting the full value from your bike.

Since that is the case, please return your bike to stock and ride as yamaha sold it to you as that is the limit of the bike you require.

You should do that with your gixxer.... Wait, arent you working with an R1? Odd....

Actually none of this is an issue. For if not any of the above reasons, but for the reason that YOU did not pay for that tune. You want to see the TUNE, pay for it from a tuner. People in the field of automotive/motorcycle repair/upgrading DO NOT WORK FOR FREE. You are asking for some one to give you something for free they worked for.

Would YOU go to your job, work all day, for free? How about 365 times?

You are failing to see the actual question YOU are asking because YOU are not getting your way.





**edit: When in my uniform, getting parts for my own car (usually) or motorcycle, I am often stopped and asked questions on how to repair things or diagnose them. I am paid for my services and usually walk away. Which leads to "that was rude" or "what an a$$(*le".. Resulting in the above response. I can fix anything with an engine. Cars, motorcycles, boats and your lawn mower. But will NEVER EVER do it for free. I am a professional mechanic/technician, and my time/experience is MONEY. No money, get out. Have a happy holidays.
Wow, that was an awesome rant you had there. Great points you got there and thanks for explaining it to us. I get it now, makes sense. Much Appreciated.
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post #146 of 152 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 12:56 AM
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@SpidermanSS , I stumbled across a post in which you tell somebody to do exactly what you are telling me can't be done. He was using a different exhaust with the graves cat-eliminator tune, and you tell him to save the changes to the baseline map to make it more accurate. That's all i've been trying to do here. What changed in the 1.5 months since you posted this?

https://www.r1-forum.com/forums/10-ap...ml#post8283266

Quote:
Originally Posted by scobility View Post
I don't see the point in needing the bikeside harness and downloading the trim tables to apply to the map, though. Isn't the point of ActiveTune do that fine tuning every time you ride, in real time? Is there an advantage to doing it the way SpidermanSS is suggesting?

For instance, I currently run the Graves cat-delete map with my cat-delete exhaust (M4 mid-pipe with stock can). Keeping that map and activating ActiveTune should give me the desired results, correct? Or am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scobility View Post
... I am using the Graves cat elim tune. Also, if it tunes in real time, what does it matter? Guess I am missing something...

Quote:
Originally Posted by scobility View Post
Sorry if I came off as argumentative. I'm not arguing, I'm just saying that I think I'm not understanding. I'm trying to understand what the difference and benefit is. Seems to me like they are different roads to the same destination.

You say "there is a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE difference in a Graves cat elim tune", which I am using, but also that I would benefit from updating my base map. Also that the ActiveTune works on top of whatever base map you have in real time.

What I'm trying to figure out is how the performance doesn't even out when adding ActiveTune to the mix. Seems to me that whichever base you start at, whether it be FTECU unrestricted, Graves, or custom, the ActiveTune should complement it and "fill in the gaps," as it were, to run at optimal performance.

Also, I do plan on getting your Graves 3/4 with CF can system sometime in the next year. Or, if I can afford it, the complete system. But the M4 and stock can are making due for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpidermanSS View Post
Hi scobility...

First off thank you for considering our products we look forward to it. It's difficult for us to technically support and to explain all the details of each situation when it doesn't involve our products and I mean that respectfully it's just too difficult. We'd assume the other companies would be doing there own development work to actively support setups they produce but that is a rare case outside our company especially with advanced tuning options like this. The conversation should be steered toward the fact the the products you have combined together were not the ones that we originally developed the mappings for. All the "widgets" inside the tune, throttle maps, engine braking, ignition tables etc all had our exhaust system built in and around for it.

Keeping this in mind if you don't ride and update the map in your unique situation then there is a bigger correction factor each time the bike is ridden due the gap in the tune. Your bike will run smoother, closer to being optimized if you do these update it only become better

Last edited by pete165; 12-01-2016 at 12:59 AM.
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post #147 of 152 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 06:57 AM
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Is there any type of Exhaust Gas Offset built into the FTECU program?

You would think with the wide array of possible O2 sensor locations some type of EGO would be needed. If the o2 sensor is right outside the exhaust port in the headers, maybe not, but if located down at the collector or right at the can, you would think there would be some delay in mS from the time the sample leaves the combustion chamber before it arrives at the O2 sensor to be measured, thus skewing which cells and TPS settings the sample is applied to. Especially under rapidly changing RPMs and TPS settings being whacked open from sudden throttle position changes.

Dynojet Dyno operators stick the sensor in the very end of the can, so must be considerable delay from the time the sample leaves the combustion chamber till it arrives at the sensor stuck in the end of the can. With rapidly changing RPMs and TPS settings how would the program know what cells to apply the sample too? This may be why Dynojet Tuners use the same target AFR in ever cell to get around this Exhaust Gas offset.

Not sure how one size fits all tuning program could work with all the varying O2 sensor locations on different bikes if using different target AFRS in many cells of the map.

I don't know, that's why I am asking.
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post #148 of 152 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTDR View Post
Is there any type of Exhaust Gas Offset built into the FTECU program?

You would think with the wide array of possible O2 sensor locations some type of EGO would be needed. If the o2 sensor is right outside the exhaust port in the headers, maybe not, but if located down at the collector or right at the can, you would think there would be some delay in mS from the time the sample leaves the combustion chamber before it arrives at the O2 sensor to be measured, thus skewing which cells and TPS settings the sample is applied to. Especially under rapidly changing RPMs and TPS settings being whacked open from sudden throttle position changes.

Dynojet Dyno operators stick the sensor in the very end of the can, so must be considerable delay from the time the sample leaves the combustion chamber till it arrives at the sensor stuck in the end of the can. With rapidly changing RPMs and TPS settings how would the program know what cells to apply the sample too? This may be why Dynojet Tuners use the same target AFR in ever cell to get around this Exhaust Gas offset.

Not sure how one size fits all tuning program could work with all the varying O2 sensor locations on different bikes if using different target AFRS in many cells of the map.

I don't know, that's why I am asking.
Maybe AF_DELAY ?
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post #149 of 152 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdallasm View Post
Maybe AF_DELAY ?
YES, that's looks good, thanks for posting that. Exactly answers my question.
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post #150 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-24-2018, 05:36 AM
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Installed my ActiveTune last night, smoothed out so much. Is everyone using the stock AFR target table? Is it a good target?

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post #151 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-08-2018, 01:43 AM
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Hey guys, added auto tune to my bike. It made an amazing difference while riding yesterday. After reading all of this I realize why I couldnít save my trims. Iím running the graves cat elimination map. Which my bike runs very good with alone but throttle application needs to be better and there are a few spots that needed to be smoothed out. With the auto tune run it did all of that for me. My question is does it just start over every time, I head out? Seems it would make more sense to be able to save and add those trims so that it needs to make less corrections next time out. Could there be a way to save the changes with out ever seeing the base numbers that Graves has created. I certainly understand that everyoneís time has a cost associated and all that. Being a professional and a tradesman with a unique skill, I agree completely with that. If we canít it is what it is. I just would like to get my bike running as best as possible with the money already spent, rather than now spending another 400-500 to get a tune on top of all the equipment.
With my experience on getting tunes around here at least, Iíve never had a tuner do any more that adjust fuel curves. Iíve never seen one of them, adjust ignition or engine breaking or any thing else.
So really what is better auto tune on the graves map, wish I could save my trims, or unrestricted and let auto work till I build a great fuel map over the next couple of months??
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post #152 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-08-2018, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigormootis View Post
Hey guys, added auto tune to my bike. It made an amazing difference while riding yesterday. After reading all of this I realize why I couldnít save my trims. Iím running the graves cat elimination map. Which my bike runs very good with alone but throttle application needs to be better and there are a few spots that needed to be smoothed out. With the auto tune run it did all of that for me. My question is does it just start over every time, I head out? Seems it would make more sense to be able to save and add those trims so that it needs to make less corrections next time out. Could there be a way to save the changes with out ever seeing the base numbers that Graves has created. I certainly understand that everyoneís time has a cost associated and all that. Being a professional and a tradesman with a unique skill, I agree completely with that. If we canít it is what it is. I just would like to get my bike running as best as possible with the money already spent, rather than now spending another 400-500 to get a tune on top of all the equipment.
With my experience on getting tunes around here at least, Iíve never had a tuner do any more that adjust fuel curves. Iíve never seen one of them, adjust ignition or engine breaking or any thing else.
So really what is better auto tune on the graves map, wish I could save my trims, or unrestricted and let auto work till I build a great fuel map over the next couple of months??
Ditch the Graves tune.... use the Unrestricted from FTEcu. this will allow you to save your corrections, and adjust your throttle maps (among other things).
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