2018 MotoGP Season **Spoiler Alert** - Page 14 - Yamaha R1 Forum: YZF-R1 Forums
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post #261 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 07:36 AM Thread Starter
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@Banky That video is nuts right? Regardless if it’s Rossi or not.
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post #262 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 08:23 AM
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@Banky That video is nuts right? Regardless if it’s Rossi or not.
Probably not Rossi but yes, nuts. Just when you think you're fast...

I was riding at Miller Motorsports Park and Keith Code was working with a couple Argentine riders. I was putting in my best lap of the day and these two guys went by me like I was on the kickstand. I just thought, "oh, so that's what fast looks like..."
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post #263 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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post #264 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 10:16 AM
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Happened to me with Dane Westby at Daytona. I stuck with him for one lap, little sdid I know he wasn’t riding with me, he was waiting on someone. He was a solid 8secs faster around Daytona on his 600 while I was on the R1

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You pecker head....
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post #265 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 10:18 AM
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Fact is JLo's 25 points DOWN. I don't care why. It's still Funny

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post #266 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 10:57 AM
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Fact is JLo's 25 points DOWN. I don't care why. It's still Funny
That's mean...

JLo didn't finish the last race of last season and didn't finish the first race of this season. He's starting to show some consistency on the Duc.

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post #267 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 12:02 PM
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Ah, no. It's been acknowledged by the riders and journalists as being the hardest bike to ride for a while now, which is why nobody other than Marquez (who 'overrides' the bike) has had very good results on it. Crutchlow has ridden all 3 big factory bikes and confirmed numerous times that the Honda is the hardest to ride. In addition to being hard to ride, it was noticeably down on power during 2015/16 and struggled with rear grip issues. The M1, on the other hand, is considered the easiest to ride. The Honda looks like the best bike because of Marquez's ability.
And Crutchlow has won races on it.

Ah, fuk no. Easier to ride and maximum performance out of it are two different things entirely. How is the Yamaha the best best bike when the M1 struggles at the end of the race with rear tire wear? The Honda and Ducati are faster down the straight and come off the corners better, better acceleration and top speed. The M1’s one remaining trait, that is better, is midcorner, it’s always been the best at that. That’s the only place it has an advantage. On the brakes the Honda or Ducati are just as good, and both accelerate stronger, and have better or milder tire wear. Yamaha was behind last year and they are behind this year.


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Ah
Hang on, you guys have been saying for years that Lorenzo's championships and the success of the M1 were the results of Rossi's development work on the M1. Now you're changing your tune and saying that in Rossi's absence with Ducati, the M1 was developed solely around Lorenzo's riding style. Which is it? It can't be both. If the bike was developed solely around Lorenzo's 'unique' riding style and didn't suit anyone else, why was Rossi able to come 2nd two years in a row with it? Why would that need to be "pulled back" from such successful development work to produce a shittier bike? I think you're just changing the claims to suit the narrative.
No that’s your game. I guess you don’t read much out of autosport. Rossi left Dude, for 2 years, and went no where on the Ducati. During that time, Yamaha wrapped development around Lorenzo and his riding style. Zarco talked last year and this year that the bike’s he has been on with Yamaha need to be ridden like Lorenzo to get the most out of them. In 2017 he was on the 2016 bike, which was all Lorenzo’s development. Last year Yamaha started pulling away from this and made another step this year away from that. Working to get the bike to match the other mfr’s on the brakes into the corner.

Lorenzo did benefit from Rossi’s development. But that was many years ago. Rossi was doing all the donkey work the first 4 years of Lorenzo being on that team and Lorenzo got to cherry pick. Once Rossi was back at Yamaha after Ducati, no, the bike had already been catered to Lorenzo’s riding style. You are getting 8-10 years ago mixed up with the last few years. Hell even Lin and Yamaha have talked about this a few times over the last year. Say whatever you want about Valentino, cry, whine, whatever. When the manufacturer doesn’t fight him and his team, and they listen and do what he says the bike needs, every rider on that mfr. benefits. He does have a well established history of being an outstanding development rider. Going all the way back to the NSR.

Lorenzo has a unique riding style which doesn’t match up well with the Ducati or most any other rider. If Gigi can get the Ducati adapted to Jorge’s riding style, he’ll start winning races and be a threat every round because the Ducati is a missile. But the Ducati is very very different to anything Jorge has ever ridden. The Italians do the bikes completely opposite of the Japanese. The Ducati is a championship capable bike, last year, even better this year, and Lorenzo is not getting the results on it. I’m not gonna call him shit like people did when Rossi rode for them on that pos carbon fiber hunk of junk. Those times were so ineffective in listening to the rider and team Gigi had to completely reorganize Corse and tell them to start listening or gtfo. So it’s not a Lorenzo problem imo. Ducati need to give him a bike he can ride his way. If they can do that, Lorenzo will be up at the front every race. Honda and Yamaha need to look the fuk out if Gigi can keep making new frames via their subcontractor. Once the midcorner handling changes on the Duck, it’s game over man. The Ducati is real easy on that rear tire, all the while being the fastest thing out there down the straight. The bike is a monster in acceleration and top speed. And the desmodromic valve system uses less fuel than the Japanese bikes use via pneumatic valves. Or as the fuel goes away during the race, the desmo is more efficient in fuel use. Ducati also have the best handle on the Magneti Marelli ecu and software. That bike is going to give Márquez an even match this year, even with Marquez’s superior riding ability.

And if Marc stays healthy, away from serious or career ending injury, and rides for another 7 years, into his early 30’s. He’ll smash all of Valentino’s records. When he and Honda have everything working, he is unbeatable so far. And when everything isn’t right, or Ducati is just a step ahead, he finishes in 2nd on Dovi’s back wheel. I’m no Márquez fan by any stretch but he may be the best talent the sport has ever seen. Time will tell.
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post #268 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 01:52 PM
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No doubt he's also the man, but let's see him jump on another bike and show equal results.
Since the moment he first swung a leg over the Debri in Moto3, the Suter in Moto2 and RCV in MotoGP its been the same result, Domination.

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What bike HASN'T been hard for Crutchlow to ride? He hasn't met a bike, yet, that he can't toss into the gravel inside of 5 laps for one reason or another. Seriously....using Crutchlow as an objective data point.....lol. Good try, though.
Your reasoning here is nothing short of stupid. If Crutchlow's assessment of various MotoGP bikes isn't enough for you I believe Jack Miller also reiterated the fact that the Honda was much more difficult to ride than his new steed.

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So, Lorenzo jumps to Ducati and his avg finish tanks for going on two years, but you think Marquez would have gone straight to winning, and it "wouldn't be a problem"?
Lorenzo isn't Marquez... As much as I like Lorenzo, he requires near perfection in setup and conditions to dominate Marc requires what seems to be little more than 2 wheels a frame, and an engine to dominate

If you require proof, look no further than his switch from a moto2 to motogp. The bikes couldn't be anymore different in terms of power, speed, handling, weight, electronics, and of course the humungous step up in the level of competition. Same result...
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post #269 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 02:33 PM
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Since the moment he first swung a leg over the Debri in Moto3, the Suter in Moto2 and RCV in MotoGP its been the same result, Domination.
For the record, Marc Marquez has never raced in Moto3, he raced in the 125 class, I will agree that he has been dominant since leaving KTM in the 125cc class, but I will also argue he hasn't ridden a "dog" since said KTM.

He was on Suter when it was the best bike in the class (Suter won the Moto2 manufacturer's championship from 2010-2012).

The RC213V may not consistently have been the best bike in the field, but I would argue that is has not been the worst (for factory bikes).


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post #270 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 02:55 PM
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And Crutchlow has won races on it.

Ah, fuk no. Easier to ride and maximum performance out of it are two different things entirely. How is the Yamaha the best best bike when the M1 struggles at the end of the race with rear tire wear? The Honda and Ducati are faster down the straight and come off the corners better, better acceleration and top speed. The M1’s one remaining trait, that is better, is midcorner, it’s always been the best at that. That’s the only place it has an advantage. On the brakes the Honda or Ducati are just as good, and both accelerate stronger, and have better or milder tire wear. Yamaha was behind last year and they are behind this year.


No that’s your game. I guess you don’t read much out of autosport. Rossi left Dude, for 2 years, and went no where on the Ducati. During that time, Yamaha wrapped development around Lorenzo and his riding style. Zarco talked last year and this year that the bike’s he has been on with Yamaha need to be ridden like Lorenzo to get the most out of them. In 2017 he was on the 2016 bike, which was all Lorenzo’s development. Last year Yamaha started pulling away from this and made another step this year away from that. Working to get the bike to match the other mfr’s on the brakes into the corner.


Lorenzo did benefit from Rossi’s development. But that was many years ago. Rossi was doing all the donkey work the first 4 years of Lorenzo being on that team and Lorenzo got to cherry pick. Once Rossi was back at Yamaha after Ducati, no, the bike had already been catered to Lorenzo’s riding style. You are getting 8-10 years ago mixed up with the last few years. Hell even Lin and Yamaha have talked about this a few times over the last year. Say whatever you want about Valentino, cry, whine, whatever. When the manufacturer doesn’t fight him and his team, and they listen and do what he says the bike needs, every rider on that mfr. benefits. He does have a well established history of being an outstanding development rider. Going all the way back to the NSR.

Lorenzo has a unique riding style which doesn’t match up well with the Ducati or most any other rider. If Gigi can get the Ducati adapted to Jorge’s riding style, he’ll start winning races and be a threat every round because the Ducati is a missile. But the Ducati is very very different to anything Jorge has ever ridden. The Italians do the bikes completely opposite of the Japanese. The Ducati is a championship capable bike, last year, even better this year, and Lorenzo is not getting the results on it. I’m not gonna call him shit like people did when Rossi rode for them on that pos carbon fiber hunk of junk. Those times were so ineffective in listening to the rider and team Gigi had to completely reorganize Corse and tell them to start listening or gtfo. So it’s not a Lorenzo problem imo. Ducati need to give him a bike he can ride his way. If they can do that, Lorenzo will be up at the front every race. Honda and Yamaha need to look the fuk out if Gigi can keep making new frames via their subcontractor. Once the midcorner handling changes on the Duck, it’s game over man. The Ducati is real easy on that rear tire, all the while being the fastest thing out there down the straight. The bike is a monster in acceleration and top speed. And the desmodromic valve system uses less fuel than the Japanese bikes use via pneumatic valves. Or as the fuel goes away during the race, the desmo is more efficient in fuel use. Ducati also have the best handle on the Magneti Marelli ecu and software. That bike is going to give Márquez an even match this year, even with Marquez’s superior riding ability.

And if Marc stays healthy, away from serious or career ending injury, and rides for another 7 years, into his early 30’s. He’ll smash all of Valentino’s records. When he and Honda have everything working, he is unbeatable so far. And when everything isn’t right, or Ducati is just a step ahead, he finishes in 2nd on Dovi’s back wheel. I’m no Márquez fan by any stretch but he may be the best talent the sport has ever seen. Time will tell.


The Honda has had major flaws for the past couple of seasons (they are well documented) not to mention being universally recognized as the most difficult bike to ride. While the M1 has been considered the best all around and easiest to ride fast bike on the grid for years, a quick tour of David Emmett's Moto matters for one would quickly dispel any other such notions. Secondly, if you take Marquez's result out of the equation Yamaha's dominate all other manufactures in top 3 finishes. Let's also remember how the media had already penciled in Mavericks name as world champion before the 2017 season ever started. He was all but unstoppable during testing and the first part of the season He also raved about the bikes abilities and how easy it was to go fast without much trying.

When Rossi left lorenzo delivered Yamaha another world title and one more when Rossi came back. Results dictate development and when Maverick picked up right where Lorenzo left off Yamaha continued down the same path which clear didn't benefit Rossi. It wasn't until Michelin opted for a mid season change in tire construction that left both factory Yamaha riders on their heads that development direct changed. Obviously Lorenzo was gone and Maverick didn't have much experience with the M1 development so naturally Rossi was probably regarded more so than Mavericks. Yamaha have openly stated that development directions have been some what split between Rossi and Mav as they are asking for different things.


Other than that Well said!

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post #271 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 03:02 PM
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For the record, Marc Marquez has never raced in Moto3, he raced in the 125 class, I will agree that he has been dominant since leaving KTM in the 125cc class, but I will also argue he hasn't ridden a "dog" since said KTM.

He was on Suter when it was the best bike in the class (Suter won the Moto2 manufacturer's championship from 2010-2012).

The RC213V may not consistently have been the best bike in the field, but I would argue that is has not been the worst (for factory bikes).
Good catch about Moto3/125
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post #272 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 05:00 PM
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What bike HASN'T been hard for Crutchlow to ride? He hasn't met a bike, yet, that he can't toss into the gravel inside of 5 laps for one reason or another. Seriously....using Crutchlow as an objective data point.....lol. Good try, though.
And pulling 'factoids' out of your arse like you do is so much more credible? Uhm... I'll take the word of the guy who actually rides the bikes, thanks.
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post #273 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 05:06 PM
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Your reasoning here is nothing short of stupid. If Crutchlow's assessment of various MotoGP bikes isn't enough for you I believe Jack Miller also reiterated the fact that the Honda was much more difficult to ride than his new steed.
You're wasting your time. He thinks the guys who actually ride the bikes know less than he does. You can't argue with that sort of dedication to stupidity.
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post #274 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 05:22 PM
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Rossi left Dude, for 2 years, and went no where on the Ducati. During that time, Yamaha wrapped development around Lorenzo and his riding style. Zarco talked last year and this year that the bike’s he has been on with Yamaha need to be ridden like Lorenzo to get the most out of them. In 2017 he was on the 2016 bike, which was all Lorenzo’s development. Last year Yamaha started pulling away from this and made another step this year away from that. Working to get the bike to match the other mfr’s on the brakes into the corner.

Lorenzo did benefit from Rossi’s development. But that was many years ago. Rossi was doing all the donkey work the first 4 years of Lorenzo being on that team and Lorenzo got to cherry pick. Once Rossi was back at Yamaha after Ducati, no, the bike had already been catered to Lorenzo’s riding style. You are getting 8-10 years ago mixed up with the last few years. Hell even Lin and Yamaha have talked about this a few times over the last year. Say whatever you want about Valentino, cry, whine, whatever. When the manufacturer doesn’t fight him and his team, and they listen and do what he says the bike needs, every rider on that mfr. benefits. He does have a well established history of being an outstanding development rider. Going all the way back to the NSR.

Lorenzo has a unique riding style which doesn’t match up well with the Ducati or most any other rider. If Gigi can get the Ducati adapted to Jorge’s riding style, he’ll start winning races and be a threat every round because the Ducati is a missile. But the Ducati is very very different to anything Jorge has ever ridden. The Italians do the bikes completely opposite of the Japanese. The Ducati is a championship capable bike, last year, even better this year, and Lorenzo is not getting the results on it. I’m not gonna call him shit like people did when Rossi rode for them on that pos carbon fiber hunk of junk. Those times were so ineffective in listening to the rider and team Gigi had to completely reorganize Corse and tell them to start listening or gtfo. So it’s not a Lorenzo problem imo. Ducati need to give him a bike he can ride his way. If they can do that, Lorenzo will be up at the front every race. Honda and Yamaha need to look the fuk out if Gigi can keep making new frames via their subcontractor. Once the midcorner handling changes on the Duck, it’s game over man. The Ducati is real easy on that rear tire, all the while being the fastest thing out there down the straight. The bike is a monster in acceleration and top speed. And the desmodromic valve system uses less fuel than the Japanese bikes use via pneumatic valves. Or as the fuel goes away during the race, the desmo is more efficient in fuel use. Ducati also have the best handle on the Magneti Marelli ecu and software. That bike is going to give Márquez an even match this year, even with Marquez’s superior riding ability.

And if Marc stays healthy, away from serious or career ending injury, and rides for another 7 years, into his early 30’s. He’ll smash all of Valentino’s records. When he and Honda have everything working, he is unbeatable so far. And when everything isn’t right, or Ducati is just a step ahead, he finishes in 2nd on Dovi’s back wheel. I’m no Márquez fan by any stretch but he may be the best talent the sport has ever seen. Time will tell.
I know that JLo got on a bike in 2008 that was the result of Rossi's development. I also know that when Rossi left, JLo took over and continued to make the bike even better.
I wasn't getting anything confused. My comment was a criticism of the ridiculous narrative that's trotted out around here about how "Lorenzo only won championships because Rossi developed the bike". I've seen it posted here many times (although no necessarily by you) when talking about the success of the M1 and any attempt to correct the story and point out that Lorenzo did just as much work on that bike is met with ridicule and derision. It just seemed very convenient that now the M1 is struggling, someone here comes out and says it was developed around Lorenzo. FWIW, I agree with your assessment.

I don't agree about the Honda being the best bike. It remains to be seen if it's the best bike *now*, but it certainly hasn't been "the best in the paddock for a number of years". P.K.1000r has summed that up already so I don't need to repeat it.

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post #275 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 05:28 PM
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You're wasting your time. He thinks the guys who actually ride the bikes know less than he does. You can't argue with that sort of dedication to stupidity.
Being difficult to ride and being the best overall bike on the grid aren't mutually exclusive, in spite of your parochial assessment of select pieces of anecdotal evidence and otherwise asinine extrapolations. Don't let that stop you from achieving genius status in your own imagination, though. Bottom line, until Marquez actually does throw his leg over a dog and win with it right away, you're simply bartering on fanboy entropy. And if you really want to see who has the goods and who doesn't, how 'bout pulling the ecu's?

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post #276 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 05:34 PM
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Being difficult to ride and being the best overall bike on the grid aren't mutually exclusive, in spite of your parochial assessment of select pieces of anecdotal evidence and otherwise asinine extrapolations. Don't let that stop you from achieving genius status in your own imagination, though. Bottom line, until Marquez actually does throw his leg over a dog and win with it right away, you're simply bartering on fanboy entropy. And if you really want to see who has the goods and who doesn't, how 'bout pulling the ecu's?
"anecdotal evidence". You're referring to comments from riders who are the only people capable of giving experiential feedback on how the bikes are. As opposed to the evidence you have in support of your position, which is absolutely nothing.

Well done.

Also, I think you mean "bordering".

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post #277 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 06:43 PM
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So, Lorenzo jumps to Ducati and his avg finish tanks for going on two years, but you think Marquez would have gone straight to winning, and it "wouldn't be a problem"?

I personally think Lorenzo is a big cry baby. He can ride when everything in his f'd up head is aligned with the stars.
Marquez is no Lorenzo, he just might be the best dam rider like Rossi's younger days. The Duc is a different machine to ride for sure, but stoner proved it was possible, and I still think Marquez could ride anything.
I also believe like some have said that Marquez if he stays heathy, will smash all records.


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post #278 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 08:54 PM
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"anecdotal evidence". You're referring to comments from riders who are the only people capable of giving experiential feedback on how the bikes are. As opposed to the evidence you have in support of your position, which is absolutely nothing.

Well done.

Also, I think you mean "bordering".
No, I meant "bartering", but it should have said bartering "with", not bartering "on".

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I personally think Lorenzo is a big cry baby. He can ride when everything in his f'd up head is aligned with the stars.
Marquez is no Lorenzo, he just might be the best dam rider like Rossi's younger days. The Duc is a different machine to ride for sure, but stoner proved it was possible, and I still think Marquez could ride anything.
I also believe like some have said that Marquez if he stays heathy, will smash all records.


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Can't argue with that (other than the fact that the Duc Lorenzo is riding is nothing remotely similar to the Duc Stoner rode). I just don't believe it's a given that Marquez can get on any bike and keep winning just because it's got an engine, 2 wheels and a frame. However, there are apparently psychics among us who can guarantee it would happen, as can clearly be evidenced by combining a handful of statistics from different seasons with some quotes from Cal Crutchlow and Jack Miller, and some articles from the incontrovertible interwebz.

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post #279 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 09:01 PM
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Being difficult to ride and being the best overall bike on the grid aren't mutually exclusive, in spite of your parochial assessment of select pieces of anecdotal evidence and otherwise asinine extrapolations. Don't let that stop you from achieving genius status in your own imagination, though. Bottom line, until Marquez actually does throw his leg over a dog and win with it right away, you're simply bartering on fanboy entropy. And if you really want to see who has the goods and who doesn't, how 'bout pulling the ecu's?

The fact that you would even propose such an idea in the face of facts that clearly say otherwise displays a level of stupidity on par with Donald Trump himself. Go brush your teeth because after what you just said I know your breath smell like

Since the beginning of 2015 or so the Honda has been far from the best bike on grid and hands down the most difficult to ride period. Marc, Cal, Jack, and Dani are all on record saying as much. In fact Marc has said on numerous occasion that he feels as if the bike is holding him back. Judging by his utter domination of the field on his way to the 2014 title I'd agree with the man.
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post #280 of 804 (permalink) Old 03-21-2018, 02:53 AM
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Put Marquez on any bike that another rider is unable to ride into the top 10, and yeah he might make top 6 with it, he's that good... but to win on a dog? Unlikely.

Put Marquez on the KTM or Aprilia and he'd never see the podium all season, barring some sort of flag-to-flag tactical win.


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