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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Best in MotoGP

Mechanically all things being equal (same bike, no injuries, etc.) put to the test of the best out of say 10 races, who do you thing would win the most between the following riders and why:

Andrea Dovizioso
Jorge Lorenzo
Marq Marquez
Dani Pedrosa
Valentino Rossi
Casey Stoner

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-14-2018, 06:37 AM
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My pick is Rossi for the win...

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-14-2018, 08:00 AM
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Each one has a different riding style so it would largely depend upon the bike.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-14-2018, 08:14 AM
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Very hard to answer.

There's no way the bikes can be "Mechanically all things being equal (same bike, no injuries, etc.)", as I believe there's a huge difference between Marquez's and Pedrosa's current bike. Different in the setup, geometry, tuning ... so while they have the same manufacturer, they are very different in the tuning, geometry and setup.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-14-2018, 12:40 PM
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Well, Rossi is the only one who has won championships on multiple styles of bikes/engines/2stroke/4stroke.....
He is still competitive because he adapts......
Maybe thats an answer in itself but who knows.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-14-2018, 06:36 PM
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Valentino.

For the same reasons as Banky stated.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-15-2018, 05:47 AM
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It would've been better if you specified a bike that's not common to MotoGP.

For example, have all the riders mentioned plus a few others (ie. Zarco, Iannone, Crutchlow) take bone stock ZX10s off of the show room floor, and give them a full 3 day weekend at 6 different tracks on the same compound tire (probably a Dunlop KR451). Let them have FP1, FP2 on Friday, FP3, Q1, Q2 on Saturday, and them WUP and race on Sunday.

I choose Thunderhill, Lagua Seca, COTA, Mid-Ohio, VIR, and NYST all in their longest configuration (yes, this is biased to US tracks).

If a rider crashes or has a mechanical failure, they get a new bike off of the showroom floor with 600 miles on it after it's been broken in by me.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-15-2018, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banky View Post
Well, Rossi is the only one who has won championships on multiple styles of bikes/engines/2stroke/4stroke.....
He is still competitive because he adapts......
Maybe thats an answer in itself but who knows.
Well, he never won on a Ducati. Stoner and now Lorenzo have.

Someone had to say it ...
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-15-2018, 12:49 PM
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Well let's just say Lorenzo has proven how he does on a race made up of the same bikes...

WDW2018 Race of Champions Race Results:
No. Rider Nat Bike Laps Time Gap Ref. Fastest Lap
1 51 Pirro Michele ITA Ducati Panigale V4 5 8’16.622 2 1’38.030
2 53 Rabat Esteve ESP Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’19.010 2.388 2.388 4 1’38.171
3 12 Forés Javier ESP Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’19.692 3.070 0.682 5 1’36.610
4 43 Miller Jack AUS Ducati Panìgale V4 5 8’22.460 5.838 2.768 3 1’39.304
5 33 Melandri Marco ITA Ducali Pamgale V4 5 8’22.766 6.144 0.306 2 1’39.264
6 21 Rinaldi Michael ITA Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’23.320 6.698 0.554 5 1’39.168
7 4 Dovizioso Andrea ITA Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’24.410 7.788 1.090 3 1’39.149
8 10 Simeon Xavier BEL Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’26.328 9.706 1.918 5 1’39.860
9 9 Petrucci Danilo ITA Ducall Panigate V4 5 8’28.946 12.324 2.618 5 1’39.877
10 99 Lorenzo Jorge ESP Ducat• Panigale V4 5 8’31.035 14.413 2.089 5 1’40.252
11 17 Abrham Karel CZE Ducali Panìgale V4 5 8’32.330 15.708 1.295 2 1’40.750
12 21 Bayliss Troy AUS Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’53.681 37.059 21.351 3 1’39.662


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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-15-2018, 04:48 PM
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Pirro has done about 25000 laps of that circuit as a test ride he's probably done 10 more than any other rider. They are never going to beat him. Also they all phoned it in. They were probably under strict instructions not to get injured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamzombie View Post
Well let's just say Lorenzo has proven how he does on a race made up of the same bikes...

WDW2018 Race of Champions Race Results:
No. Rider Nat Bike Laps Time Gap Ref. Fastest Lap
1 51 Pirro Michele ITA Ducati Panigale V4 5 8’16.622 2 1’38.030
2 53 Rabat Esteve ESP Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’19.010 2.388 2.388 4 1’38.171
3 12 Forés Javier ESP Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’19.692 3.070 0.682 5 1’36.610
4 43 Miller Jack AUS Ducati Panìgale V4 5 8’22.460 5.838 2.768 3 1’39.304
5 33 Melandri Marco ITA Ducali Pamgale V4 5 8’22.766 6.144 0.306 2 1’39.264
6 21 Rinaldi Michael ITA Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’23.320 6.698 0.554 5 1’39.168
7 4 Dovizioso Andrea ITA Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’24.410 7.788 1.090 3 1’39.149
8 10 Simeon Xavier BEL Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’26.328 9.706 1.918 5 1’39.860
9 9 Petrucci Danilo ITA Ducall Panigate V4 5 8’28.946 12.324 2.618 5 1’39.877
10 99 Lorenzo Jorge ESP Ducat• Panigale V4 5 8’31.035 14.413 2.089 5 1’40.252
11 17 Abrham Karel CZE Ducali Panìgale V4 5 8’32.330 15.708 1.295 2 1’40.750
12 21 Bayliss Troy AUS Ducali Panigale V4 5 8’53.681 37.059 21.351 3 1’39.662
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-16-2018, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZ_R1 View Post
Well, he never won on a Ducati. Stoner and now Lorenzo have.

Someone had to say it ...
Because Ducati wouldn’t listen to him. Even Lorenzo said as much when he started winning on it. Stoner won less every year after 2007. Ducati was heading the wrong way while the Japanese were advancing every year. Dovizioso hopped on Rossi’s bike when he Sig ed with Ducati and basically called it a POS, and said there is nothing about the current bike that is comparable to the first Ducati he hopped on, nothing. So that line is played out.

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-16-2018, 11:43 AM
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Which brings me to my next point, which is Rossi's inability to work with teams to improve bikes. The Yamaha has gone backwards since Lorenzo left - it was slower at the Red Bull Ring than 2 years ago despite Rossi riding the wheels off it.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-16-2018, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZ_R1 View Post
Which brings me to my next point, which is Rossi's inability to work with teams to improve bikes. The Yamaha has gone backwards since Lorenzo left - it was slower at the Red Bull Ring than 2 years ago despite Rossi riding the wheels off it.
The only bike I would say was Lorenzo's work was the M1 from 2011 til 2013 (from the year after Rossi left up to the year after he returned, since Ben Spies likely didn't have much say during that time) every M1 from 2014 until 2017 is likely based on a combination of Lorenzo and Rossi's input. Of course, none of us will ever know what the actual development split is unless you happen to be Lin Jarvis, Massimo Meregalli or a Yamaha factory racing engineer.

Meanwhile Yamaha has admitted they have lagged behind on software development on the series spec ECU, while the other factories have hired engineers from Magnetti Marelli.

Yamaha is so desperate for help figuring out the electronics on this bike they finally got their own Italian (he has worked for Ducati Corse (2013-2016)and BMW Motorrad's WSBK team from 2011-2013 and previously for Yamaha WSBK (2008-2011)

MotoGP?

But feel free to blame it all on Rossi, if that fits your narrative...


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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-17-2018, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by NZ_R1 View Post
Which brings me to my next point, which is Rossi's inability to work with teams to improve bikes. The Yamaha has gone backwards since Lorenzo left - it was slower at the Red Bull Ring than 2 years ago despite Rossi riding the wheels off it.
Not true at all. Rossi and Burgess were a development powerhouse. See 2001 on the NSR, 2002-2003 on the RC211v, the M1 as soon as he got on it. The 2005 being "the" best bike, Rossi says, out of all his Yamahas. When the factory he rides for, listens, they win together. Ducati never listened to them, Corse knew better, so they thought. We see how that turned out. When Rossi left the entire M1 program was spun around Lorenzo. And was until this year. JZ even stating that to get the most out of the bike you had to ride it like Lorenzo rode it. That finally changed this year when Yamaha changed the chassis, at Rossi's request. Now the weight distribution, chassis, all dialed. Problem is the engine (Crankshaft mass) and electronics. It's the opposite of what you say, and Rossi is the best development rider in the paddock, and they all know it. You should read Sir Alan Cathcart's reviews of all the GP bikes over the years. I was reading his take on all the GP bikes for a decade and a half. He always marveled at Rossi's bike, stating easiest to ride, best sorted, etc, etc. Anyone questioning Valentino's development skills should probably stick to their own profession. The current M1 woes, well Valentino started telling Yamaha there was a problem 18 months ago, and really got on their arses 13 months ago. Yamaha have done jack bone sheet to fix these issues which is why they are in their current predicament.

Yamaha has always sucked at this, but Rossi/Burgess would tell them what needed to be done and they'd make the corrections May/June every time and wins would come. This is the first time since Rossi has ridden for them, where they've refused the input, or I guess refused to do anything about it. The old man still has it, look at the stats this year. he's busting Mav and JZ's ass 3 ways to Sunday. And he's an old f'er.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-24-2018, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightSuccess View Post
It would've been better if you specified a bike that's not common to MotoGP.

For example, have all the riders mentioned plus a few others (ie. Zarco, Iannone, Crutchlow) take bone stock ZX10s off of the showroom floor, and give them a full 3 day weekend at 6 different tracks on the same compound tire (probably a Dunlop KR451). Let them have FP1, FP2 on Friday, FP3, Q1, Q2 on Saturday, and them WUP and race on Sunday.

I choose Thunderhill, Laguna Seca, COTA, Mid-Ohio, VIR, and NYST all in their longest configuration (yes, this is biased to US tracks).

If a rider crashes or has a mechanical failure, they get a new bike off of the showroom floor with 600 miles on it after it's been broken in by me.
Yeah, I get that, I just didn't want to get too specific in naming a notorious "Ducati Track" or "Honda Track", on the other hand, sign me up for the bike break in!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Banky View Post
Well, Rossi is the only one who has won championships on multiple styles of bikes/engines/2stroke/4stroke.....
He is still competitive because he adapts......
Maybe thats an answer in itself but who knows.
Good point and also somewhat the reason for the question, however, right now, MM isn't too far behind him in the number of Championships won (understanding they are not on as many multiple bikes/manufacturers). It's kind of like how some are trying to compare Lebaron to MJ (don't even get me started!), in my mind NO WAY, but at some point, the numbers have to do all the talking!


Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldSBK View Post
Very hard to answer.

There's no way the bikes can be "Mechanically all things being equal (same bike, no injuries, etc.)", as I believe there's a huge difference between Marquez's and Pedrosa's current bike. Different in the setup, geometry, tuning ... so while they have the same manufacturer, they are very different in the tuning, geometry and setup.
understood but... you know what I'm getting at here



Quote:
Originally Posted by iamzombie View Post
The only bike I would say was Lorenzo's work was the M1 from 2011 til 2013 (from the year after Rossi left up to the year after he returned, since Ben Spies likely didn't have much say during that time) every M1 from 2014 until 2017 is likely based on a combination of Lorenzo and Rossi's input. Of course, none of us will ever know what the actual development split is unless you happen to be Lin Jarvis, Massimo Meregalli or a Yamaha factory racing engineer.

Meanwhile Yamaha has admitted they have lagged behind on software development on the series spec ECU, while the other factories have hired engineers from Magnetti Marelli.

Yamaha is so desperate for help figuring out the electronics on this bike they finally got their own Italian (he has worked for Ducati Corse (2013-2016)and BMW Motorrad's WSBK team from 2011-2013 and previously for Yamaha WSBK (2008-2011)

MotoGP?

But feel free to blame it all on Rossi, if that fits your narrative...
true, true

Quote:
Originally Posted by NZ_R1 View Post
Which brings me to my next point, which is Rossi's inability to work with teams to improve bikes. The Yamaha has gone backwards since Lorenzo left - it was slower at the Red Bull Ring than 2 years ago despite Rossi riding the wheels off it.
OBJECTION your Honor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drjak View Post
Not true at all. Rossi and Burgess were a development powerhouse. See 2001 on the NSR, 2002-2003 on the RC211v, the M1 as soon as he got on it. The 2005 being "the" best bike, Rossi says, out of all his Yamahas. When the factory he rides for, listens, they win together. Ducati never listened to them, Corse knew better, so they thought. We see how that turned out. When Rossi left the entire M1 program was spun around Lorenzo. And was until this year. JZ even stating that to get the most out of the bike you had to ride it like Lorenzo rode it. That finally changed this year when Yamaha changed the chassis, at Rossi's request. Now the weight distribution, chassis, all dialed. Problem is the engine (Crankshaft mass) and electronics. It's the opposite of what you say, and Rossi is the best development rider in the paddock, and they all know it. You should read Sir Alan Cathcart's reviews of all the GP bikes over the years. I was reading his take on all the GP bikes for a decade and a half. He always marveled at Rossi's bike, stating easiest to ride, best sorted, etc, etc. Anyone questioning Valentino's development skills should probably stick to their own profession. The current M1 woes, well Valentino started telling Yamaha there was a problem 18 months ago, and really got on their arses 13 months ago. Yamaha have done jack bone sheet to fix these issues which is why they are in their current predicament.

Yamaha has always sucked at this, but Rossi/Burgess would tell them what needed to be done and they'd make the corrections May/June every time and wins would come. This is the first time since Rossi has ridden for them, where they've refused the input, or I guess refused to do anything about it. The old man still has it, look at the stats this year. he's busting Mav and JZ's ass 3 ways to Sunday. And he's an old f'er.
Again, kind of my point, all politics asides, who do you think is the best at getting it done? As it is, MM, no question, but again, that's the point of the original (hypothetical) question. Personally:

Rossi - I feel like on equal equiptment, he's a fighter and the biggest competition there is.
MM - Dude is also a fighter, I just don't see it as much (probably because of except for lately nobody has been able to keep up with him long enough to actually make him fight for a win).
Dovi - I think He's one of the best and a good rider/fighter, he's just not consistent, C"MON DOVI!
Stoner - I can't even say where I'd throw him in the mix, he'd really be chopping it up with these guys!

but that's my opinion...

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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-24-2018, 11:27 AM
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Yeah I don't like the "GOAT" conversation..... Time makes comparisons null in void, IMO.

I like the idea of the Hall of Fame type conversations.


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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-24-2018, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
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Yeah I don't like the "GOAT" conversation..... Time makes comparisons null in void, IMO.

I like the idea of the Hall of Fame type conversations.
Agreed, how do you even start to compare Ago, Read, etc to today's riders?

It's usually Rossi fans who start this GOAT stuff. He hasn't even retired yet.
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