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SO FAST SO CLEAN
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What's interesting is he doesn't even mention that the concept behind how the front wheelie slightly kicks out the opposite direction then forces the bike to lean. Which means you basically counter steered.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I wonder what Keith Code would say about the article.

It could give some credibility to those people who say they lean to turn. Indeed by leaning they are unconsciously countersteering by pushing their inside arm into the steering and pulling their outside arm across the bike. Perhaps this is the missing link between leaning and countersteering as the article suggests? Keith Code what do you think?
 

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Turn #8 Got Me
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1st: I fear the diagram:crash
2nd: I'm not sure how this is any different from countersteering. Push left to go left.....(countersteering), but it's the torso that initiates the arms?
OK, it's the head that initiates the torso to move, so the head and eyes are what initiate the movement.
Maybe it should be called the "eye-head-neck-back-shoulder-humerous-ulna/radius-carpal-metacarpal tricky sneaky countersteering theory."
Also, I've read and seen stuff that disagrees with Code and most make sense, and may aid in turning the bike, but someone tell me if I'm wrong...the most effective way to steer (and probably the only way to steer at high speeds) is countersteering. I don't think you can "lean" a bike into a turn at 100 mph with weight on pegs.
 

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Actually this was taught in my racing school. A good example is to sit at your dest, place your hands on the edge of your desk in front of you like your handle bars. now try the lean your sholder into the corner technique and then the lean in the opposite direction technique. Really you are keeping perpendicular with the bike (in line with the bike). As you try it, notice the force that is applied through you palm. Now, try transitioning from right to left. You should notice that you can transfer force to the opposite hand quickly and easily when not leaning into the turn. If you drop your shoulder, you are taking away your ablility to control the bike and change directions as quickly. This is one change I had to make myself, I always dropped my shoulder into the turn and carried massive lean angles. However, I hit a platau as far as corner speed was concerned. After changing my riding style I dropped my time and the control of the bike was quite noticable.
 

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1st: I fear the diagram:crash
2nd: I'm not sure how this is any different from countersteering. Push left to go left.....(countersteering), but it's the torso that initiates the arms?
OK, it's the head that initiates the torso to move, so the head and eyes are what initiate the movement.
Maybe it should be called the "eye-head-neck-back-shoulder-humerous-ulna/radius-carpal-metacarpal tricky sneaky countersteering theory."
Also, I've read and seen stuff that disagrees with Code and most make sense, and may aid in turning the bike, but someone tell me if I'm wrong...the most effective way to steer (and probably the only way to steer at high speeds) is countersteering. I don't think you can "lean" a bike into a turn at 100 mph with weight on pegs.
Yes countersteering is the basis, but the real control of your bike is from pressure on the foot peg. One way to know if your riding your bike correctly is to check the bottom of your boot. If you are riding correctly you should be wearing a hole in the bottom of you boot causing you to replace your boots about every 6 months. You should always have all of your weight on the pegs and when you reach your drop in point you should aggresively force weight on the peg to manuver the bike into the turn. Of course you will be countersteering as well, but the the weight on the peg will provide a quick change and provide stability to the suspension. Turning into the corner is not something you take your time with and ease it in, you should decide your spot and aggresively turn your bike in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I think the technique would work, instead of pushing against the bars you momentarily stiffen your arms, then press your torso forward and towards the direction of the turn i.e as you normally would towards your inside mirror with no give in your arms. Your outer arm automatically pulls on the bar because you are not allowing it to stretch. Your inside arm pushes the bar because you are not allowing your elbows to bend. As the bike leans your outer arm pulls less on the bar because the bike leaning brings the outer bar towards your torso, you push less on the inside bar because the bike is moving under you when leaning bringing you more upright as the bike leans, when the bike is leaning more than you are your inside arm then pulls on the inside bar and your outside arm pushing against the outside bar pushing the wheel towards the inside of the turn and generating centralfugal force to keep the bike stable in the turn. Provided you keep your torso still in the corner the theory is that you will apply the correct pressure to the bars to turn the wheel away and then into the corner by simply moving your body alone. But you do need to stiff arm the steering to achieve this because any give in your arms reduces the effect of your torso on the steering. This is the most controversial aspect of this theory since I was lead to believe and it is indeed one of Keith Codes survival reactions and a wrong thing to do that stiff arming the steering reduces control yet this method encourages it. For a newbie rider this contradictory method makes it very hard to determine the most effective steering method. The advantage of course is that by steering with your torso you no longer need to guess when to release steering pressure for the bike to track in or how much countersteering pressure to apply with your inside hand. Your torso does this automatically and applies countersteering without you guessing in an emergency which bar to press so it feels more natural then countersteering. Also you may be able to steer faster provided you have good torso strength because the method uses both arms to steer indirectly through your torso turning the bars quickly as opposed to one countersteer push. This can easily be seen as countersteering by pulling and pushing is far quicker and less predicable then pushing with one hand.

I have tried this technique and it does work just stiffen your arms lean with the torso and let your torso control the rate of steering.
 

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dumdedum
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Interesting, seems to be a METHOD of countersteering. Will give it a try but i doubt you can beat conciously using your arms to countersteer, the effects on the bike are so dramatic. I also really enjoy countersteering, it's so precise. Dont think i would like to hit a nasty bump at the exact time my arms are stiff enough to transmit enough energy to turn the bars at a fast speed either.
 

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dumdedum
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I. The advantage of course is that by steering with your torso you no longer need to guess when to release steering pressure for the bike to track in or how much countersteering pressure to apply with your inside hand. Your torso does this automatically and applies countersteering without you guessing in an emergency which bar to press so it feels more natural then countersteering.
To be honest i never have this problem anyway, i find that my brain works it out when i'm in the corner. Kinda linked to 'bike goes where you look'.



Also you may be able to steer faster provided you have good torso strength because the method uses both arms to steer indirectly through your torso turning the bars quickly as opposed to one countersteer push.
I generally use both hands to counter steer anyway.....unless i'm scratching my nuts :)

I have tried this technique and it does work just stiffen your arms lean with the torso and let your torso control the rate of steering.
I haven't tried it yet but will post back when i have. Really don't like the idea of stiff arms when cornering.....:scared

Also i think this method takes some education away....i mean that you are still countersteering but not really knowing about it....really you should know that if you push one way bike goes other....Best thing i ever learnt...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Spangels one thing though, I think I am countersteering too long how long generally do you apply the countersteering pressure to initiate the lean.

Is it true that one the bike starts to lean you turn the steering in the direction of the turn to allow the bike to track. I have seen countersteering videos on u tube and its only for a fraction of a second the wheel points in the opposite direction to the turn, as the bike falls in the rider steers into the turn and the bike then begins to track.

Do you turn into the turn or do you allow the wheel to track by itself and simply release the pressure. This bit of countersteering confuses me, the torso steering method seems to release the pressure on the bars gradually as the bike leans towards the rider and then turns the wheel into the turn as the bike lean angle exceeds the rider implying that the rider should deal with the rate at which the bike tracks into the turn and countersteering merely tips the bike over. It also states that when the wheel is pointing straight ahead while the bike is leaned there is no centralfugal force generated and so the bike will continue to fall via gravity until the front wheel tracks towards the turn generating centralfugal force to stabilise the bikes lean angle. Do you agree with this spangles?
 

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dumdedum
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Spangels one thing though, I think I am countersteering too long how long generally do you apply the countersteering pressure to initiate the lean.
Is it true that one the bike starts to lean you turn the steering in the direction of the turn to allow the bike to track. I have seen countersteering videos on u tube and its only for a fraction of a second the wheel points in the opposite direction to the turn, as the bike falls in the rider steers into the turn and the bike then begins to track.
Do you turn into the turn or do you allow the wheel to track by itself and simply release the pressure. This bit of countersteering confuses me, the torso steering method seems to release the pressure on the bars gradually as the bike leans towards the rider and then turns the wheel into the turn as the bike lean angle exceeds the rider implying that the rider should deal with the rate at which the bike tracks into the turn and countersteering merely tips the bike over.also states that when the wheel is pointing straight ahead while the bike is leaned there is no centralfugal force generated and so the bike will continue to fall via gravity until the front wheel tracks towards the turn generating centralfugal force to stabilise the bikes lean angle. Do you agree with this spangles?
Ok. I'm no expert, and it is a long time since i did my Eng quals. I'll give it a go though!

Honestly i don't think about it that much, however ask yourself this...If you want to tighten the corner what do you have to do (steering only)....You have to countersteer more...Yes?

I.e after your initial input to set the lean angle...to change the lean angle you have to counersteer more/again. What happens when you the corner opens up and you have to stand the bike up....You countersteer in the opposite direction untill its upright(you turn the front wheel into the corner)....keep countersteering and it falls to the otherside..Yes? So...if your front wheel is pointing into the turn what is going to happen to the bike? Its gonna stand up...would you agree?

Ok. Centrafugal forces are in opposition to the co-efficiant of friction(traction) they have nothing to do with lean angle, neither does gravity, absolutly nothing to do with lean angle.

Whats a really good way of getting slow speed stability? Rev the arse off the engine...Why...Gyroscopic force.....

So lean angle.....when you put a countersteering input through the handle bars the front wheel deflects the mass of the bike off axis. The bike then falls onto the outside of the tire..It comes to a comfortable position and stays there...the bike sets the lean angle not you.. you just tell it to lean by steering. the only thing keeping you from hiting the tarmac is the gyro force from the rear wheel, the front wheel only provides 20-25% of gyro force as it is detached from the main mass of the bike via a pivot joint.

Right, i dont think the front wheel turns the bike!!! I think it steers it but once that initial steering input is done and the bike falls over, the rear wheel takes over and turns the machine through the corner....Ever lifted the front coming out of a corner?...what happens....the bike keeps tracking through the corner, then subtle weight shift stands it up...would you agree?

Sorry if you know all this and i'm way off target, best way is to go experiment! It's more fun as well...Don't think about it to much..The main thing is that you know you have to countersteer to turn it...this is what will save your life and help you work with your bike not against it. If that method above suits you use it, but practise...As i said before i love using my arms to pull/push the bars, you can feel the bike leaning on its own, it's a good feeling..Peg weighting and body position just assist the turn.
 

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dumdedum
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Spangels one thing though, I think I am countersteering too long how long generally do you apply the countersteering pressure to initiate the lean.
Sorry didn't answer this...If you countersteer for to long you will either fall over or crash into the apex!! Simple as that really mate :)

How long you hold it for depends on speed and radius.

I think your thinking about it too much really....the important thing to do is countersteer....everything else will fall into place when you do it...its abit like hitting a ball with a bat, your brain (hand eye co-ord) sorts it out, you just have to be trying to hit the ball...If your swinging in the wrong direction you have no f*cking chance!!
 

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Pirate Brian
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Yes countersteering is the basis, but the real control of your bike is from pressure on the foot peg. One way to know if your riding your bike correctly is to check the bottom of your boot. If you are riding correctly you should be wearing a hole in the bottom of you boot causing you to replace your boots about every 6 months. You should always have all of your weight on the pegs and when you reach your drop in point you should aggresively force weight on the peg to manuver the bike into the turn. Of course you will be countersteering as well, but the the weight on the peg will provide a quick change and provide stability to the suspension. Turning into the corner is not something you take your time with and ease it in, you should decide your spot and aggresively turn your bike in.

So should your butt be slightly off the seat then if all your weight should be on the pegs?
 

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I didn't have time to go thru the whole thing but from what I gather he is talking about slow speed turns. If you've watched motor cop's practicing in a confined, coned area you'll see that they practice these techniques for tight, slow-speed turns....droping the bike into the turn while keeping the torso straight or even pushed in the opposite direction slightly. These techniques will not work on a race track.
 

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Pirate Brian
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Great Music! Anyone know where I can get that album haha. Those guys are pretty impressive though.
 

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good point

I didn't have time to go thru the whole thing but from what I gather he is talking about slow speed turns. If you've watched motor cop's practicing in a confined, coned area you'll see that they practice these techniques for tight, slow-speed turns....droping the bike into the turn while keeping the torso straight or even pushed in the opposite direction slightly. These techniques will not work on a race track.
Exactly, I think the technique is also similar to dirtbike riding. Anyway the point to take home as far as riding at speed is not to drop your shoulder into the turn, it will take away from your ability to change direction quickly.
 
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