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Discussion Starter #1
I came across this video on another forum. Since joining the KTM tribe, I've broadened my moto forum sphere a little.
Anyway, this guy is on some twisty road in Japan. He mentions that he's on sports touring tires and that he wants to replace them. I'm not sure if that means he's just unhappy with the aggressive riding performance of said tires, or they're getting old.

Go to about 2:20 if you want to skip to the straight before the crash.


To me it looks like he added too much gas and overwhelmed the rear. Possibly also due to tire issue. What does everyone think?
Side note, he seems to have some dangerous habits earlier on. Not the smoothest throttle application, adding gas while adding some lean angle, etc.
 

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I do see where he opened the throttle to induce the slide.
Does he say that he broke his collar bone?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Description said dislocated shoulder. (That must be fun.) I'm guessing nothing else, because he was back on the bike not that much later.
 

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Too much gas too soon caused the rear to start to slide, and caused a high-side. It also sounded like he was scraping peg so he could be leaning the bike over too far as well (poor body position can contribute to that).

The OP mentions that there are some seriously bad habits throughout the video, the most glaring to me is the fact that he keeps adding lean angle and gas at the same time. You can see it clearly in a few of the corners, he turns the bike a little, gets on the gas very early and keeps leaning the bike while adding more gas. This is one of the most common crash scenarios we see at the Californa Superbike School.

Throttle control is one of the most important skills to master. How else might you describe good throttle control and are there other throttle errors that this rider is making? Could he have done anything differently to prevent the high side once the rear started sliding?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Too much gas too soon caused the rear to start to slide, and caused a high-side. It also sounded like he was scraping peg so he could be leaning the bike over too far as well (poor body position can contribute to that).

The OP mentions that there are some seriously bad habits throughout the video, the most glaring to me is the fact that he keeps adding lean angle and gas at the same time. You can see it clearly in a few of the corners, he turns the bike a little, gets on the gas very early and keeps leaning the bike while adding more gas. This is one of the most common crash scenarios we see at the Californa Superbike School.

Throttle control is one of the most important skills to master. How else might you describe good throttle control and are there other throttle errors that this rider is making? Could he have done anything differently to prevent the high side once the rear started sliding?
Years ago, one of your coaches pulled me aside mid-session because he noticed me adding gas and lean angle simultaneously, which likely has saved my butt a few times.The reasons I did it were dumb, and on track were down to my poor corner entry (setup, speed, turn-in rate, etc.).

To me good throttle control aids in smooth transition of the bike's weight between front and rear. It involves weight transfer and geometry changes. If this happens too abruptly, it can upset the bike more easily, pushing the limits of traction further.

Apparently those scrape sounds were sliders.
 

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Years ago, one of your coaches pulled me aside mid-session because he noticed me adding gas and lean angle simultaneously, which likely has saved my butt a few times.The reasons I did it were dumb, and on track were down to my poor corner entry (setup, speed, turn-in rate, etc.).

To me good throttle control aids in smooth transition of the bike's weight between front and rear. It involves weight transfer and geometry changes. If this happens too abruptly, it can upset the bike more easily, pushing the limits of traction further.

Apparently those scrape sounds were sliders.
As CSS coaches we are highly trained to watch for riders adding lean angle and gas at the same time as it is probably the number one reason for track day crashes. When we see it, we pull over our students immediately and inform them of the error so that it can be resolved before a crash occurs. I'm glad to hear that you appreciated the fact that it probably saved your butt a few times. It's a bad habit that a lot of riders have.

Your explanation of good throttle control is great. Yes, it aids in the smooth transition of the bikes weight between front and rear. Smooth throttle application transfers weight off the front tire and onto the rear, helping provide more available traction and allowing the suspension to work as it was designed.

What do you think is the main reason why people might add lean angle and gas at the same time? Besides them not realizing they are doing it, what might cause a rider to add lean and gas at the same time and how could it be prevented?
 

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What do you think is the main reason why people might add lean angle and gas at the same time? Besides them not realizing they are doing it, what might cause a rider to add lean and gas at the same time and how could it be prevented?
I know one way is becuase they entered the turn too slow, so they have to throttle as not to turn on the inside and to make the apex, thus causing a crash
 

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Discussion Starter #10
What do you think is the main reason why people might add lean angle and gas at the same time? Besides them not realizing they are doing it, what might cause a rider to add lean and gas at the same time and how could it be prevented?
I knew I was doing it, but I didn't realize how harmful it could be at the time.
I did it as a bandage to cover up my poor corner entry. I would enter far too slow, get on line, and realize I had a ton of tire/lean left. So I'd aim to add some gas, and add lean angle to maintain my line line to the apex. I'll admit I was also chasing the dream of finally getting a knee down in a corner.
Cornering is indeed simultaneously the best and most complex part of riding. Learning how/when to brake, and how to overcome the survival reactions were huge for my improvement.
 

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i see wet and then dry road surface. wet come from night time; dry where sun has dried road. it morning time

some asphalt surface become slippery with a little water

so he went from wet to dry and that cause a little high side. what cause a high side? when tire is slowed and then allowed to spin freely again.

yes, he may have hit rear brake too by mistake; you ever upshift when you wanted to down shift

at argentina, that track lies below the water table. it full of damp areas even if it look dry. water seeps upward into the asphalt. from the helicopter you can see the damp areas.

i saw Iannone and marquez both wipeout together, but marquez was behind iannone, never touching each other. both hit a damp spot in a broad curve section and i forget but probably lose the front

edit:
he did nothing wrong except not know that road. underneath mountain road is gravel allowing water to flow downhill under the pavement; under the asphalt it very damp. the trees block sunlight and keep sections more damp than others.
i also see where road was repaired AND different compounds of asphalt are used, and some sections are older than others.

and his rear tire could have hit something on the road losing grip and then recovering grip
 

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I know one way is becuase they entered the turn too slow, so they have to throttle as not to turn on the inside and to make the apex, thus causing a crash
This seems to be exactly what theesoapster is saying below....perhaps?

I knew I was doing it, but I didn't realize how harmful it could be at the time.
I did it as a bandage to cover up my poor corner entry. I would enter far too slow, get on line, and realize I had a ton of tire/lean left. So I'd aim to add some gas, and add lean angle to maintain my line line to the apex. I'll admit I was also chasing the dream of finally getting a knee down in a corner.
Cornering is indeed simultaneously the best and most complex part of riding. Learning how/when to brake, and how to overcome the survival reactions were huge for my improvement.
So how did you go about fixing, resolving the situation? Is it just a matter of entering the corner faster? Sometimes that can be tricky, when you add speed to something that isn't fundamentally working.

What about how quickly or slowly you turn the bike? Does that have impact on whether you might be leaning and adding gas at the same time?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
So how did you go about fixing, resolving the situation? Is it just a matter of entering the corner faster? Sometimes that can be tricky, when you add speed to something that isn't fundamentally working.

What about how quickly or slowly you turn the bike? Does that have impact on whether you might be leaning and adding gas at the same time?
Well it's always something I'm working on. It's much easier on a track, as you'll hit the same corners repeatedly, and you have much more room to practice. After I stopped doing it, I had to focus on the other elements affecting my slow approach. Repeated laps and sessions give you that ability to really work on any particular problem corners. You start using reference points (like brake markers) to help, making small adjustments as you go along. Switching to a fast turn in (not adding gas in the process) definitely helps.
 

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Well it's always something I'm working on. It's much easier on a track, as you'll hit the same corners repeatedly, and you have much more room to practice. After I stopped doing it, I had to focus on the other elements affecting my slow approach. Repeated laps and sessions give you that ability to really work on any particular problem corners. You start using reference points (like brake markers) to help, making small adjustments as you go along. Switching to a fast turn in (not adding gas in the process) definitely helps.
Absolutely, repeated laps and having good solid reference points will help with things like improving entry speed and having better lines. And being confident that you can get the bike turned in quickly is HUGE in being able to up the pace of your turn entry. It's pretty hard to feel comfortable increasing the corner entry speed if you don't have confidence that you can get the bike turned quickly enough.

so how do you improve the RATE at which you are able to turn a bike? If you are approaching a right hand turn, and you want to turn the bike quicker, what do you do? What are the benefits of turning the bike quickly, vs more slowly?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
so how do you improve the RATE at which you are able to turn a bike? If you are approaching a right hand turn, and you want to turn the bike quicker, what do you do? What are the benefits of turning the bike quickly, vs more slowly?
Sitting in the right way helps. Increasing turn-in speed is partially a matter of leverage on the bars. If you sit up on the bike and over the bars, you're not going to be able to exact as much force as you could be if you're situated more behind them. For sportbikes, that means getting tucked in a bit.
I'd say the next is related to the geometry of the bike. When you roll off the gas, the front of the bike is going to collapse some, which will make rapid turn-in easier. Some front brake beforehand will also help the front settle down. Being off the gas also inherently makes the bike less stable, which when turning in is exactly what you want.
On an unrelated note, how's the wrist?
 
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