[Bilko1000]

I am slightly confused with throttle application at the point of turning in in a turn. After reading a Twist of the Wrist 2 I currently roll off the throttle up to turn entry, turn and only when I have finished countersteering then begin rolling on the throttle. I do find though that riding this way the bike is still slow to lean.

Some articles I have read promote rolling on the throttle either at the same time or just before turning in to help the front tyre grip by preventing it from being overloaded from the weight transfer caused by rolling off the throttle towards the turn point.

Other opinions I have read state the front tyre can only cope with either weight transfer or changing direction and not both. Because of this I have read that it is better to maintain speed at corner entry to both tyres are equally balance, flick it in and then roll on the throttle to transfer weight to the rear tyre throughout the turn.

I am also confused as to how much of a roll on and how quickly the roll on should be. Do you roll on up to a third, half or full throttle throughout the corner. Do you achieve the roll on in a half second, second etc. Is there a way to judge the rate of roll on. I read Andy Ibbott used only 3 - 10mm of roll on depending on the type of corner which hardly seems full throttle. Any opinions on this? I appreciate any help please.

 

[plimmer]

Don't over analyze this Dude, spending plenty hours in the saddle will help you figure it out.

Here's what I think I do, but it depends on the corner and the layout of the track, after braking and just before full lean, I crack the throttle just enough to neutralize engine braking, somewhere near the apex, I start to pick the bike up and roll on the gas. The amount of throttle roll on depends on how big your balls are, how much grip you have and whether the back of the bike feels stuck to the road.........lol

Dunno if that helps you but thats what I think I do.........

 

[1hander]

its hard to say because everyone does it different,

mine is kinda like this

1. brake hard at my brake marker
2. start my turn in then release slightly but still trail brake to the apex, then as i start to apply throttle im releasing the front brake
3. still leaned over and start to apply enough throttle as im accelerating out of the the turn that the tire is just starting to break tracrion and keep adding throttle as i stand the bike up till im at full throttle.
usually im on the gas pretty hard before the apex but you have be careful with throttle when jacked over that far

sometimes the back tire is spinning up at corner exit but youll get used to the bike moving around underyou, i know i have and it used to scare the hell out of me, but its normal,

sometimes you have to fight the bars under hard braking and turn in, cuz its gonna want to stand up on you and run wide, you gotta muscle it down and keep it there,

alot of instructors have told me that im doing it wrong, because im having to use muscle to keep the bike down and it should turn by itself and track once im the turn, but i theres no way thats gonna happen if your going fast enough that you have to trail brake to make the turn.

but sometimes i trail brake all the way through the apex if i get in too hot or if i blow my brake marker.

once you trust your tires, youll know how much you can get away with and where and when you can get away with it, its just about seat time

 

[Misti]

I am slightly confused with throttle application at the point of turning in in a turn. After reading a Twist of the Wrist 2 I currently roll off the throttle up to turn entry, turn and only when I have finished countersteering then begin rolling on the throttle. I do find though that riding this way the bike is still slow to lean.

Some articles I have read promote rolling on the throttle either at the same time or just before turning in to help the front tyre grip by preventing it from being overloaded from the weight transfer caused by rolling off the throttle towards the turn point.

Other opinions I have read state the front tyre can only cope with either weight transfer or changing direction and not both. Because of this I have read that it is better to maintain speed at corner entry to both tyres are equally balance, flick it in and then roll on the throttle to transfer weight to the rear tyre throughout the turn.

I am also confused as to how much of a roll on and how quickly the roll on should be. Do you roll on up to a third, half or full throttle throughout the corner. Do you achieve the roll on in a half second, second etc. Is there a way to judge the rate of roll on. I read Andy Ibbott used only 3 - 10mm of roll on depending on the type of corner which hardly seems full throttle. Any opinions on this? I appreciate any help please.

Bilko1000,

I'm a coach with the California Superbike School and I understand a lot of your questions here as I get them all the time from other students. Let us first address on thing at a time. You have a lot going on here and are only going to get frustrated trying to solve all the issues at once.

So, you mention that right now you roll off the gas, turn the bike, and then roll on the gas. Cool. This is exactly what I do in most turns. Now, you say that this seems to make the lean happen slowly.

What exactly makes the bike turn? If you are coming up to a left hand turn for example what do you do to make the bike turn left? Lets take a look here first at how you are managing to get the bike turned in the first place and then we will address how to get it turned a little bit quicker.

Cheers,
Misti

 

[Bilko1000]

Misti-Sorry for the delay in relying, I turn the steering wheel in the opposite direction to the corner to turn. I read alot of books saying I should use one hand to do this but recently I have been using two hands to turn the wheel and once leaned one hand to make slight adjustments or maintain pressure with my outside arm resting on the tank. I have found that using both arms to initially countersteer has sped up the rate at which the bike leans in and requires much less effort. Obviously this is due to using both arms but it may point to my riding position being incorrect which is why I feel it difficult to steer using one hand because I cant pull at the same time.

I do try to bend my elbows etc but maybe im not keeping my elbow level enough with the ground when im pushing and so wasting energy. I do find my steering far quicker and more accurate using two arms to countersteer instead of one. It also makes more sense to because even when the the bike is still you can steer quicker using two instead of one hand with far less effort. This seems to have solved my slow steering problem. Perhaps I should just stick to using one arm during the turn but two arms to initiate countersteering. What do you think

 

[Misti]

Misti-Sorry for the delay in relying, I turn the steering wheel in the opposite direction to the corner to turn. I read alot of books saying I should use one hand to do this but recently I have been using two hands to turn the wheel and once leaned one hand to make slight adjustments or maintain pressure with my outside arm resting on the tank. I have found that using both arms to initially countersteer has sped up the rate at which the bike leans in and requires much less effort. Obviously this is due to using both arms but it may point to my riding position being incorrect which is why I feel it difficult to steer using one hand because I cant pull at the same time.

I do try to bend my elbows etc but maybe im not keeping my elbow level enough with the ground when im pushing and so wasting energy. I do find my steering far quicker and more accurate using two arms to countersteer instead of one. It also makes more sense to because even when the the bike is still you can steer quicker using two instead of one hand with far less effort. This seems to have solved my slow steering problem. Perhaps I should just stick to using one arm during the turn but two arms to initiate countersteering. What do you think

Hey Bilko1000,

OK, I think I understand what you are saying. When you say you are using two hands to counter-steer, you mean you are pushing with one and pulling with the other? Is that correct? So, in a left hand turn, you would be pushing the left hand bar forward while pulling the right hand bar back, correct? There is nothing wrong with this. For most corners I use one hand to push but on the higher speed corners where it becomes harder to get the bike to turn, I definitely pull with the other hand as well.

You also said that this seems to have helped with getting the bike turned quickly. Good. One thing you point out is that having your arms bent will make a difference. If you have your arms straight you end up pushing down on the bars which doesn't really do much, where as you say, if you bend your arms so your elbow is pointing to the ground it makes the push "forward" more effective. This will help the quickness of your turn.

Now, one thing you mentioned is that you sometimes use your inside hand to maintain pressure on the bar. Once you initiate the turn and get your bike to the lean angle you want, do you need to maintain pressure on the bar to keep the bike at that lean angle?

Misti

 

[nivlac10]

Misti is right on the money! A little pull to assist your pushing arm makes the bike turn like power steering!

 

[jmonahan]

Seems that there are two issues, how to turn it in and when to get on the gas.

One other thing you might want to address for turn-in is body poisition, I've found that when I get body off and head low it helps with snapping it over, just feels more natural. Are you prepositioning your body for the turn, or doing it last second? If it's last second you may feel too rushed with the other actions, and affecting your perception of how hard you're really pushing.

I have a similar uncertainty with getting on the gas. If I go into the turn with the throttle shut, it seems that I can't get enough weight on the rear (could be suspension problem). I've currently been doing the following:
Brake / Body & Look thru / Little gas / Turn In / Maintain throttle / Apex / Roll it on.
Crack before turn is only couple mil past throttle opening, just enough to set some weight on the rear. With this I don't feel the bike is turning slower, I actually feel I can push it over quicker'harder, as overall the bike feels more balanced and weighted.

Don't know if gas before turn is technically correct, but it gives me a better feel for the rear, esp prior to the apex. Ocassionally, I can feel the front getting a bit upset after turn in/before apex, but only when I'm really pushing. Not a pro, just a trackday junkie. So any other/contrary advice would be appreciated.

-james

 

[BlueRavenRider]

An old ex racer here.

From what I have seen over the years, most of the really fast guys and gals do a few things much the same to some degree.
Set up for the corner early.
Get the majority of braking done early, often while getting into the correct body position for the turn. This needs to be done smoothly or the bike gets upset.
Start the turn in while trail braking. Ease off on the brakes as counter steering harder and smooth on with the gas.
If you stop the braking action too quickly the fort will want to lift quickly and unload the front, so your body needs to have weight to the front until more cornering force is braught into the front tire. Smoothly apply throttle or you can unload the front as well. More throttle will make the bike want to stand up and go wider, less throttle and the bike will draw into or tighter to the apex. Here is where you must balance counter steering force, throttle and body position to hold your intended line, while carrying as much corner speed as you feel your tires can take.
Hit your exit with more throttle and as the bike stands up, shifting weight to the rear for added traction.
Smooth is the key.
One other thing I learned when racing at BIR.
The faster you go (bike speed) the slower You (the rider) need to go.
Think about this.
At slow bike speeds you can make quick rather large changes to the controls with out a major problem.
At high speeds (turn #1 at BIR 170+), all in puts to the controls needs to be done in slow motion. Soft with the steering, extra smooth with the throttle. At 170 you are traveling at 250 feet per second. You have to isolate you self from the bars. If a small wind gust catches your arm or body and you transfer that quick input to the bars at those speeds you will be off into the pucker bushes in a heart beat.

To be fast is to be smoooooth and gentle.
Somehow that sounds pornographic.:scared

 

[Misti]

Seems that there are two issues, how to turn it in and when to get on the gas.

One other thing you might want to address for turn-in is body poisition, I've found that when I get body off and head low it helps with snapping it over, just feels more natural. Are you prepositioning your body for the turn, or doing it last second? If it's last second you may feel too rushed with the other actions, and affecting your perception of how hard you're really pushing.

I have a similar uncertainty with getting on the gas. If I go into the turn with the throttle shut, it seems that I can't get enough weight on the rear (could be suspension problem). I've currently been doing the following:
Brake / Body & Look thru / Little gas / Turn In / Maintain throttle / Apex / Roll it on.
Crack before turn is only couple mil past throttle opening, just enough to set some weight on the rear. With this I don't feel the bike is turning slower, I actually feel I can push it over quicker'harder, as overall the bike feels more balanced and weighted.

Don't know if gas before turn is technically correct, but it gives me a better feel for the rear, esp prior to the apex. Ocassionally, I can feel the front getting a bit upset after turn in/before apex, but only when I'm really pushing. Not a pro, just a trackday junkie. So any other/contrary advice would be appreciated.

-james

OK. You are right James, there are two issues to discuss here and I like your point about getting your body position taken care of early (before turn in) so that you are not rushed. That is good and I think we addressed earlier just how to go about countersteering into a turn.

So the next question is, when do you want to get on the gas. Now you made a good point about how the Throttle will transfer weight to the rear wheel. That is the goal of throttle control, to transfer the weight to the rear wheel to achieve the correct weight ratio of approx 40% up front and 60% on the rear. What this does is put the suspension into the ideal range which makes the bike more stable.

With more weight forward, ie. off the gas as you approach a corner, or slightly on the brakes the bike will turn into the corner easier. Once the bike is pointed in the direction you want it to go, you would want to make the bike as stable as possible right? If you wait till after the apex to get on the gas, the bike will be unstable for the first part of the turn with too much weight forward right? So, when do you think you would want to get on the gas in a turn? And what would you have to do with the throttle to maintain that 40/60 weight balance throughout the entire turn?

Misti

 

[quinn3419]

would you throttle after the bike is pointed and before the apex then more throttle once the apex has been passed?

looking to sharpen my bike skill and i must say coming from an italian bike the smoothness is definately harder... (on the italian bike)

so elbows should be pointing at the ground?

 

[00R6]

would you throttle after the bike is pointed and before the apex then more throttle once the apex has been passed?

After you're done steering, get on the throttle as early as possible, not heavily, just enough to get it to feel right, then add as much as you can through the rest of the corner to hold your line. Neutral throttle means you're slowing down, you need to add it smoothly to hold speed or accelerate. (I think, Misti and Dylan can give you the definitive answer.)

 

[Bilko1000]

After you're done steering, get on the throttle as early as possible, not heavily, just enough to get it to feel right, then add as much as you can through the rest of the corner to hold your line. Neutral throttle means you're slowing down, you need to add it smoothly to hold speed or accelerate. (I think, Misti and Dylan can give you the definitive answer.)

I disagree with this, neutral throttle slows you down, you can have a neutral throttle and still accelerate. For instance in a straight line if I turn the throttle a bit then hold it I accelerate slowly, if I turn it alot and hold it I accelerate quicker without having to continually turn the throttle. What you do after you turn in is twist to throttle until you achieve the 40/60 weight distribution with the right level of acceleration then hold the throttle steady until you pass your apex and can wind up the throttle because the corner has started to widen. If you do not wind the throttle up quickly enough to achieve 40/60 weight distribution after turning but before hitting the apex you will in fact still have too much weight on the front tyre. Keith Code said in the Countersteer thread you aim to apply 40/60 throttle application as soon as possible and hold a constant throttle until you are able to accelerate out of the corner. If you are continually adding throttle you may accelerate too fast round the corner by opening the throttle too wide. To see what I mean go in a straight line open the throttle to a quarter and hold. You will still accelerate. Now round a bend you may need to hold the throttle slightly past a quarter to achieve the same amount of acceleration because you are banked over but you would not then continue twisting the throttle as you go round the bend unless you have passed the Apex. For instance twist the throttle to a quarter in a straight line as above now continue to twist at the same rate. You will find that the bikes rate of acceleration will increase drastically by continually adding throttle, far more than the ideal acceleration to cause the 40/60 weight distribution around a corner.

To summarise you apply the throttle as quickly and safely as possible to achieve 40/60 weight distribution then hold the throttle constant until you are able to accelerate out of the bend. Any more throttle application after achieving 40/60 weight distribution will actually cause a loss of grip and you to go wide.

After practising this after speaking to Keith Code in the Countersteer thread I have had no more need to write any further in relation to this thread because it works. You do NOT constantly add throttle around a corner, this results in a constantly changing rate of acceleration losing grip as opposed to a constant rate of acceleration.

 

[00R6]

I disagree with this, neutral throttle slows you down, After practising this after speaking to Keith Code in the Countersteer thread I have had no more need to write any further in relation to this thread because it works. You do NOT constantly add throttle around a corner, this results in a constantly changing rate of acceleration losing grip as opposed to a constant rate of acceleration.

Well, I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong and I hope you would come back to see if you have it right so you haven't possibly misunderstood. Again I would defer to the experts, but you kept using the example of straight-line acceleration which does not take into effect the speed that you scrub off when the bike is leaned over. If you're leaned over and holding the throttle at the just cracked on spot the bike will be scrubbing off speed and putting more weight on the front through the turn. If you crack on and then feed it in a little at a time you can keep the suspension in it's sweet spot and maintain your speed.

If I remember the books correctly, neutral throttle is about 50/50 weight distribution and a smooth roll-on is required to bring it 40/60. Remember the number one rule on throttle control. I'm not saying you have to aggressively hammer on the throttle, but once you have it where you want it you have to constantly feed in throttle to keep the suspension where it is and hold speed or accelerate.

Hopefully a coach will clarify because I'm not trying to mislead you.

 

[Bilko1000]

Well, I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong and I hope you would come back to see if you have it right so you haven't possibly misunderstood. Again I would defer to the experts, but you kept using the example of straight-line acceleration which does not take into effect the speed that you scrub off when the bike is leaned over. If you're leaned over and holding the throttle at the just cracked on spot the bike will be scrubbing off speed and putting more weight on the front through the turn. If you crack on and then feed it in a little at a time you can keep the suspension in it's sweet spot and maintain your speed.

If I remember the books correctly, neutral throttle is about 50/50 weight distribution and a smooth roll-on is required to bring it 40/60. Remember the number one rule on throttle control. I'm not saying you have to aggressively hammer on the throttle, but once you have it where you want it you have to constantly feed in throttle to keep the suspension where it is and hold speed or accelerate.

Hopefully a coach will clarify because I'm not trying to mislead you.

"Now round a bend you may need to hold the throttle slightly past a quarter to achieve the same amount of acceleration because you are banked over but you would not then continue twisting the throttle as you go round the bend unless you have passed the Apex"

I think you missed the above section of my post, the point is once you achieve 40/60 weight distribution by opening up the throttle enough in a bend, you then hold it constant because applying more will widen your arc due to loss of grip because you will be reducing grip on the front wheel by winding up further then you need to. As you open the throttle your rate of acceleration increases it ony stays constant when the throttle is held constant. Once you achieve the 40/60 weight distribution whilst banked over after turning in you hold the throttle constant to maintain this acceleration. My straight line examples were to demonstrate the difference between holding the throttle constant and constantly applying throttle to show you still accelerate in both examples. To achieve the desired 40/60 weight distribution you need a little acceleration at a constant rate not a little acceleration at a constantly changing rate of acceleration. This is why Keith Code encourages you to achieve the 40/60 weight distribution as quickly as possible and then to hold this at a constant rate until the corner starts to widen.

 

[00R6]

"Now round a bend you may need to hold the throttle slightly past a quarter to achieve the same amount of acceleration because you are banked over but you would not then continue twisting the throttle as you go round the bend unless you have passed the Apex"

I think you missed the above section of my post, the point is once you achieve 40/60 weight distribution by opening up the throttle enough in a bend, you then hold it constant because applying more will widen your arc due to loss of grip because you will be reducing grip on the front wheel by winding up further then you need to. As you open the throttle your rate of acceleration increases it ony stays constant when the throttle is held constant. Once you achieve the 40/60 weight distribution whilst banked over after turning in you hold the throttle constant to maintain this acceleration. My straight line examples were to demonstrate the difference between holding the throttle constant and constantly applying throttle to show you still accelerate in both examples. To achieve the desired 40/60 weight distribution you need a little acceleration at a constant rate not a little acceleration at a constantly changing rate of acceleration. This is why Keith Code encourages you to achieve the 40/60 weight distribution as quickly as possible and then to hold this at a constant rate until the corner starts to widen.

I think you have it right, I just think you're a little off on that one part. You have to take into account that the motorcycle is slowing itself down on it's own through the turn, maybe with enough throttle opening it would hold it's speed at constant throttle but there's no way it's accelerating at neutral throttle while leaned over.

Maybe Keith could lend his wisdom in this thread too and settle the argument

 

[MikeyS]

Stratotech ????

Misti[/QUOTE]

Misti, checked your bio...which leads me to this question. I've signed up for the EMRA May 9, 10 and 11th school. One of my buddies will not come because he says Stratotech raceway is to tight to have fun on. He calls it a Kart track...What's your opinion of this track????

 

[craigA]

quick question,

if i was in mid corner and was accelerating at a constant to achieve 40/60 weight distribution, would i expect my bike to begin running wider, because i was accelerating?

 

[Misti]

I think you have it right, I just think you're a little off on that one part. You have to take into account that the motorcycle is slowing itself down on it's own through the turn, maybe with enough throttle opening it would hold it's speed at constant throttle but there's no way it's accelerating at neutral throttle while leaned over.

Maybe Keith could lend his wisdom in this thread too and settle the argument

This is absolutely correct. In Keith's books and in his coaching at the California Superbike School he never uses the term constant throttle. According to Keith, throttle control Rule Number 1 is "once the throttle is cracked on, (to achieve the 40/60 weight balance) it is rolled on evenly, smoothly , and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn."

I didn't even have to look that up because we say it so often at the school!

Here is a small tidbit from Twist II that might clarify how much acceleration is required to maintain a 40/60 weight distribution. "Considering that most machines in a static or constant speed situation have a 50/50 weight distribution (+5 or -5.0%) front to rear, we begin to calculate the guidelines of correct acceleration through a turn. By the numbers we want to transfer 10-20% of the weight rearwards using the throttle. Technically, this is 0.1-0.2G's of acceleration. Simply put, it's the force generated by a smooth fifth-gear roll-on in the 4000-6000rpm range on pretty much anything over 600cc's. That's not much acceleration but it does the job."

When a motorcycle is in a turn, friction is causing it to slow down which is why you need to continue to roll on the gas. Also, contrary to what most people believe, rolling on the gas in a corner will not make the bike run wide, but rolling OFF will. What are some other reasons why a bike would run wide in a corner?

I hope this helps.

Misti

 

[MugenNeuspeed]

I've never thought about riding like that.
For some reason, as soon as I gas up, I tend to have a tendency to lean the bike upright.
I'll try that next time