We should all use Helium!!!!!!!!!!!
Nitrogen in tires is a waste of money, read this
I don't know if any of you guys that race use N2 in your tires instead of air, but I've always done it with the cars...It was just something you did, Carroll Smith said to, it made physical sense, so you did it.
Well, a good friend of mine and I were chatting at the last Limerock event we went to and said "you know, since air is 78+% N2, and the O2 that's in there is similarly massed, then shouldn't the only real deciding factor be moisture in the gas?"
Well, we sat down, ran the calculations with what we could remember for gases from our thermo tables and cell phone calculators and verified that yes, it should indeed work that way. He took it one step further and ran it through the gas compression/expansion software that he uses for work (he's a BOC Gases Engineer) and did indeed verify (within +/- ~.01%) that it's true. Here's the attached graph (in PDF format).
So, you don't actually have to use that expensive nitrogen bottle, but you do have to keep the air completely dry. That means putting a cheap desecant dryer on the outlet of your compressor...
Now, this doesn't account for the fact that over time, the oxygen in the air will actually hurt the tires, so, don't leave them in long term storage for your race rubber, but, you don't have to go filling tires with bottled gas anymore.
Well, a good friend of mine and I were chatting at the last Limerock event we went to and said "you know, since air is 78+% N2, and the O2 that's in there is similarly massed, then shouldn't the only real deciding factor be moisture in the gas?"
Well, we sat down, ran the calculations with what we could remember for gases from our thermo tables and cell phone calculators and verified that yes, it should indeed work that way. He took it one step further and ran it through the gas compression/expansion software that he uses for work (he's a BOC Gases Engineer) and did indeed verify (within +/- ~.01%) that it's true. Here's the attached graph (in PDF format).
So, you don't actually have to use that expensive nitrogen bottle, but you do have to keep the air completely dry. That means putting a cheap desecant dryer on the outlet of your compressor...
Now, this doesn't account for the fact that over time, the oxygen in the air will actually hurt the tires, so, don't leave them in long term storage for your race rubber, but, you don't have to go filling tires with bottled gas anymore.
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I use NOS in mine adds five jp and makes her turn like a 250. :fact:
Bohem3006
Interesting article. Long time ago I was told it was more stable on pressure increases when heated (less psi movement). we used to do it, but it has been so long ,can"t find my old notes to see if the lbs increased more or less compared to dry air. Does it help in this ?
Also heard that hydrogen peroxide in tires will make them blow up when
heated and rolling. Is this true ??
Thanks , good post
Interesting article. Long time ago I was told it was more stable on pressure increases when heated (less psi movement). we used to do it, but it has been so long ,can"t find my old notes to see if the lbs increased more or less compared to dry air. Does it help in this ?
Also heard that hydrogen peroxide in tires will make them blow up when
heated and rolling. Is this true ??
Thanks , good post
Nitrogen is only necessary when in competition, and when the tire is getting really hot. Riders can tell a difference, so the the tire manufactures spend the money to have it on hand.
:thumbup
:thumbup
Guys, you are completely wrong. The main reason why Nitrogen is used on road cars (instead of air) is the lack of pressure loss over time.
Air is a mixture of different gases, large and small molecules.
The small ones (hydrogen/helium to name samples) are so small that they will find ways through the rubber of your tires, on long term.
Pure nitrogen is large enough to be held back.
The secondary reason is different compressibility. Nitrogen filling is less compressible. I have tried it on my car but vent back to air because the wheels got to hard (very low aspect ratio tires: 245/35 ). On family cars with their slim but high tire intersections it may be a good thing.
I have never tried on the bike, however, it sure is interesting to see how it affects that ride.
Juerg
P.S. I can't see the graphs for air in the diagram! Is the file supposed to show those?
Air is a mixture of different gases, large and small molecules.
The small ones (hydrogen/helium to name samples) are so small that they will find ways through the rubber of your tires, on long term.
Pure nitrogen is large enough to be held back.
The secondary reason is different compressibility. Nitrogen filling is less compressible. I have tried it on my car but vent back to air because the wheels got to hard (very low aspect ratio tires: 245/35 ). On family cars with their slim but high tire intersections it may be a good thing.
I have never tried on the bike, however, it sure is interesting to see how it affects that ride.
Juerg
P.S. I can't see the graphs for air in the diagram! Is the file supposed to show those?
Guys, you are completely wrong. The main reason why Nitrogen is used on road cars (instead of air) is the lack of pressure loss over time.
Air is a mixture of different gases, large and small molecules.
The small ones (hydrogen/helium to name samples) are so small that they will find ways through the rubber of your tires, on long term.
Pure nitrogen is large enough to be held back.
The secondary reason is different compressibility. Nitrogen filling is less compressible. I have tried it on my car but vent back to air because the wheels got to hard (very low aspect ratio tires: 245/35 ). On family cars with their slim but high tire intersections it may be a good thing.
I have never tried on the bike, however, it sure is interesting to see how it affects that ride.
Juerg
P.S. I can't see the graphs for air in the diagram! Is the file supposed to show those?
The whole point of this thread is that you're entire post is wrong.
1) O2 and N2 make up 99% of air by volume. They are almost identical in size of molecules, and N2 is 78% of that volume of air. So it makes no difference in permeability of the gas through the tires. Total BS marketing plow by tire filling companies...and trust me, Ingersoll Rands' "Nitrogen Line" I worked with the engineer who headed the project. It's BS
2) Nitrogen filling is less compressible. OMG, where do I start on this? It's a damn near IDEAL GAS, before you make statements like this go read a gas dynamics or thermodynamics book and understand what you're talking about first.
3) The reason that the graphs for dry air don't show up is BECAUSE THEY ARE COVERED BY THE N2 PLOT LINE!!! That was the point, the heating/pressure curves are so freaking close that you can't tell the difference. On a strict numerical standpoint, they're within less than 1%!
coincidently this discussion came up on another board and went so far as people pulling out van der waal constants for the gases in questions (N2 and O2) and calculating expansion rates across the range of pressure and temperatures seen in MC tyres.. there is a difference but its only around 0.1 PSI between cold to race temp.
the thing that came up during discussion was water which is hardly different from either N2 or O2 in terms of gas expansion but if you have water liquid present inside the tyre then its vapour pressure will increase significantly as it approaches boiling point and the phase change
simply put water liquid takes up much less volume than water gas
the thing that came up during discussion was water which is hardly different from either N2 or O2 in terms of gas expansion but if you have water liquid present inside the tyre then its vapour pressure will increase significantly as it approaches boiling point and the phase change
simply put water liquid takes up much less volume than water gas
Who knows what PV=NRT mean....... if you don't you shouldn't be arguing about this at all......
Yep, which is part of the reason that water is so effective at putting out fires in an enclosed space. The steam generated from the intese heat will displace the oxygen in the space and without the O2 present the fire can't burn...coincidently this discussion came up on another board and went so far as people pulling out van der waal constants for the gases in questions (N2 and O2) and calculating expansion rates across the range of pressure and temperatures seen in MC tyres.. there is a difference but its only around 0.1 PSI between cold to race temp.
the thing that came up during discussion was water which is hardly different from either N2 or O2 in terms of gas expansion but if you have water liquid present inside the tyre then its vapour pressure will increase significantly as it approaches boiling point and the phase change
simply put water liquid takes up much less volume than water gas
Yep :thumbupWho knows what PV=NRT mean....... if you don't you shouldn't be arguing about this at all......
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