Couldn't agree more.

 

Bsb better start racing big wheels before he tries to do the same to them.

I bet our great places to get content because they wont provide here in the states are on the hitlist in the future.

 

:shake

 

http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322424&highlight=

Dylan....so he's a money hungry f*** for selling out? Uh

Just seems to me that now GP can only get better at marketing itself. More money, more prototype racing. How is that bad?

 

Market what a gold plated turd? A formula that is split between one bike that is amazing but so uncompetitive that the 5-6 bikes that are run two races in one.

With all respect dont know what you mean... Until the rules and bikes get on a even medium then its a shvtshow.

David Emmett over at www.motomatters.com has a great article on what to would fix the formula, worth a read.... sometimes pragmatic simple look is the best view

 

Yamaha and Honda are pretty upset with the current MotoGP rules and have threaten to pull out of MotoGP. Seriously, It would not surprise me to see all the factories pull together and create their own prototype series while telling Carmelo to stick it...

 

sort of makes you wonder if honda has something cooking given their plans to build the new V4 SP

 

damn. Hopefully this doesn't happen. WSBK is where it's at right now imo.

 

Last 2 paragraphs are discouraging...

Sent from my AT300 using Motorcycle.com Free App

 

I love how people point the finger at Ezpeleta :lol

The MSMA which is Honda, Yamaha (Honda's bitch at the table), and Ducati had rule making authority until December 2011.

They are responsible for the current rules and driving the sport into the ground due to exponentially high costs which are a direct result of electronics and rider aids.

 

Carmelo is the idiot behind the CRT, who is also stating the CRT bike will be the future. So, the future of MotoGP, the hands down premiere motorcycle racing series in the world, the F1 of motorcycles, is destined to be lesser than WSBK by definition. Oh wait, now he rules WSBK.........wonder what will happen there. :dundun:

Like it or not, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Ducati, BMW, Aprilia, etc... are the motorcycle industry; the bikes everybody in the world owns. At this point he's done nothing to ensure the premiere mfr's can stay involved, so now Suzuki and Kawi are absent. To spurn these mfr's to chase some fantasy of low-dollar prototype racing machines is as idiotic as it gets; just cost him a World Champion, too. Point me to a dealer where I can pick up a Suter, Loda, ART, BCL, BQR-FTR. I could walk across the world asking people about Suter's and BCL's and all I'm going to get is the :dunno look. So, bring on the CRT's instead so we can sell the "we need a bigger field" scheme, which (to NOBODY'S surprise) has only created a field of 2-classes, one of which can't even compete with the next lower racing series, yet is on the grid with MotoGP bikes. Sheer Genius.

The ONLY way for him to try to keep from looking like an idiot and push his ill-conceived agenda is to either dumb down WSBK, or to blend them and create confusion between the series. The U.S. Idiot at Large, Tony George, already tried this. He destroyed American Open Wheel racing in the name of: lower cost, drivers with recognizable names (i.e. American drivers), oval tracks, etc. Once open wheel was in a coma, he finally caved and now they run road courses and street circuits again and the majority of the drivers are foreign. Bravo on the El Cheapo Premiere Series formula.

Bottom line: intelligent rules changes for the actual mfr's of premiere factory prototypes is the ONLY solution that keeps MotoGP where it should be. He may not have been the guy that was behind the runaway freight train of electronics, etc... but he IS the guy that is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Bad decision.

 

Looks like Dorna just called the MSMA's hand...

If only tobacco money was still around...

 

Even IF Carmello acquires wsbk, that doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna get sh*t on. I mean, it may just end up one of those things that doesn't change much.

Wait, what the f*ck am I saying? It's THAT guy...

 

errr its not like WSBK is in a fantastic situation either
You can argue that the racing is more exciting, but the crowds aren't there and they have lost a ton of manufacturer supported teams
Motorcycle racing in general needs a rethink to the current economic solution to come up with a sustainable future

 

I agree, and I know that that's pretty much why CRT was introduced into Moto GP. I think it's obvious though that no one wants to see what the Moaner called a "dumbing-down" of the superbikes. While everyone seems to agree that he was tooting his own horn at the time, he did have a point.

How can wsbk, or Moto GP for that matter, attract a larger following and therefore more money to keep this type of thing from happening further? I definitely don't want to see such a fantastic sport lose anymore steam (here in America particularly) than it already has.

It begs the question: with so many guys out there picking up sport bikes of all kinds, why is wsbk and moto gp suffering so much here in the US? I mean, when I was working in north carolina at camp lejeune (the marine corps base) everyone and their BROTHER was picking up rocket sleds. I just don't understand why the sport itself isn't so big here.

European/Japanese roots? Bad economy? Just don't give a f*ck? What do you guys think?

 

So the premier class will be smash up derby with 600cc Triple cyclinder motorcycles that are restricted and assisted to the back teeth. Joy.

 

Well said. One of the biggest mistakes I think he is making is limiting the manufacturers to 4 bikes if the want to build more and support them and have teams out there that can afford lease them why not let them. Moto 2 racing is pretty good but its hard to watch especially if you just got into motorcycles because no one understands what the bikes are. Also if you attend a GP with out the factories market place area there wouldn't be much going on besides the racing. Doubt FTR Suter tents would be very fun to look through.

 

The only thing that will bring fans to the events, and sponsors on the bikes is more manufacturer involvement on race day. You are down to 3 manufacturers in MotoGP, and 2 in World SBK. Both series are flailing at best. As those big names have left, so have the big sponsorships which leave us with privateer efforts struggling to bring in money trying to play with factory efforts and big wallets. It just doesn't work out.

So far Dorna has shown to the public to be catering to the 2 top factories. As unfair as it seems, they would be stupid not to. There is no one else left to bargain with. With Ducati not bringing much to the table, if Honda and Yamaha walk away from the series, what will it become? Will the racing become more competitive, absolutely. Will their be anybody watching. Who would they watch? The fans are loyal to racers and bikes. Without the factory teams involved, the teams lose their identities. How do you root for a team that next season could have new riders and different bikes. This season they are on Suzuki's, next they are on Honda's etc.
Making the both series attractive to the factories is what will bring them back to greatness. A grid filled with all 4 Japanese companies as well as the big 3 European ones. That would be exciting.

 

To top it all off, Dorna and wsbk in the same sentence is a sin. See? I just sinned. The bottom line is no one wants to see these beautiful, dream-like and near orgasmic machines get crapped on by means of some kind of CRT alternative for wsbk.

Get to the races and take as many pictures as you can, guys, cuz it looks like the good days may be numbered...

 

Why not make WSBK the stepping class to MotoGP? Moto2 is too far off in terms of performance and speed, makes it dangerous for the kids to step up

Also its not just the bike manufacturers that are expensive, 1 set of Brembo GP calipers costs around $70,000USD

 

...1 set of Brembo GP calipers costs around $70,000USD

:ugh

 

f*ckin' KNOWLEDGE for your @ss

 

:corn

 

2-strokes are not a new concept either, where are they now? Things change, hopefully in a progressive direction. CRT's are not in keeping with the modern expectations of top-flite prototype racing.

and "We"? Do you work for Dorna and forgot to tell us?

This is what you just can't comprehend.....not many can afford "top-flite prototype racing." Hence 3 mfr's only in the series.

What can I say, you never fail to seize the opportunity to show you have a lot of facts and data about <something>, in spite of the fact you don't see the bigger picture. People (especially fans) relate to things they can buy, brand things, like Honda, Ford, Chevy, Kawasaki, Yamaha, etc. It makes ZERO difference if they can buy the actual item, itself. Couple that with the expectation that MotoGp is the pinnacle of motorcycle racing and that's what they expect to see.........the BEST, cutting edge, Unobtainium, etc. CRT doesn't fit EITHER bill. Thank you for supplying your bag of shit.

Quit being an idiot. You mentioned Suter, FTR, etc, and how nobody can purchase those frames. They can, if they want to buy a frame instead of a home. My response to you was that what is in the dealer is a far cry from a MotoGP bike so it doesn't matter one way or the other. You cannot buy a Japanese bike with pneumatic valves, Honda doesn't have a production V4 sportbike currently (although they state one is on the way), Ducati doesn't have a current production V4 either. You also can't buy one with gas charged forks, ceramic rotors, tbt mapping, etc, etc. If a production racer has a Honda/Yamaha/Ducati/BMW motor, slap a mfr. logo across the lowers and there is your significance.

You apparently have failed to read, and comprehend.........no real surprise. I clearly stated (and have many times int he past) that the run away costs associated with the electronics, etc... needed to be addressed. Pursuing CRT's is admitting that they don't (or can't) stand up to the mfrs and negotiate a solution, so they just decide to add new rules that allow in "cheaper" entries, and then will push to support those new rules while the others are left to die on the vine. This isn't hard, tell Honda to fcvk off instead of indirectly telling all of them to fcvk off with this passive-aggressive approach of jumping in bed with the CRT formula. Get the costs down and Kawi and Suzuki will be back, and it won't be prohibitive for BMW to enter. However, departing from the marketable brands and top level performance and technology for what IS allowed, is a mistake, and it is already costing them. Where's the big sponsors who left GP because of cost? According to the bag of shit you've been feeding out of, they should be all over the CRT bikes. Where are they? The World Champion has said fcvk it, this is stupid.......I'm outta here. Other riders support him, but won't publicly say it or commit to making the same stand. Nobody in those stands are paying to see no-names on CRT's.

Regardless if you don't like the CRT's, they were a necessity to boost up the grid. You think anyone likes them? You think Dorna is doing back flips over this? Are you thick or something? The worldwide recession necessitated this, together with the MSMA driving up costs. 12 bikes on the grid is not enough. Every year we've seen a decrease in the number of bikes on that grid so what were they supposed to do? They've only had rule making authority (Dorna) since December of last year. CRT's are permanent, they were a chess move to tell the mfr's that if you keep it up we'll just go production racers only. The CRT formula is only a negotation tactic, and that's it. Go tell the world champ that there isn't an endless supply of money out there any more for this sport. That shit is gone. And don't tell me about sponsors, look at Colin's team. He's got a sponsor and the factory Yamaha team doesn't. What does that tell you? In fact all the CRT's have sponsors. Are they big name? You tell us grand master, but they are sponsors. Without these bikes you hate so much, those sponsors probably wouldn't be there. So with CRT's you've filled the grid up, got more sponsors in the sport, etc. Coke, Monster, or whomever is only going to sponsor a proto-bike because they want to be at the front.

And yes people do pay to see Depuniet on a CRT. Go to Lemans and you'll see it. Go to Indy, COTA, or Laguna next year and you'll see Colin Edwards fans there to see him.

I have a bike that runs perfectly. I then spend $5,000 on a newly developed PowerCommander21, have it installed and now my bike runs intermittently well are requires weekly trips to the dealership for troubleshooting. It doesn't take nostradamus to know that if I remove the PC21 the bike will go back to running perfectly again. However, nostradumass comes along and thinks I need to throw out the PC21 AND the bike, and he's got you goose-stepping right along with him.

LOL, wtf?

You clearly refuse to get it. Lower the costs to make more mfr's able to enter, and provide more bikes, NOT make a second set of rules to allow pseudo-mfr's to provide a lower, secondary class bike. For somebody who doesn't see everything as black white, you always manage to see just the opposite of whatever color I see, but still try to convince yourself that it's not black and white. For instance, to you it's black and white that CRT's were "necessary". If you want to dumb down a series, then you're probably right

I'm damn proud to see things opposite of you. You see everything as black and white, it's this or that, no middle ground of any kind. And maybe that is why you have such a big problem with this and grasping it. CRT's are a direct result of financial issues both in and out of the sport. That is what you and Casey don't get. The money isn't there to field a full grid of prototypes. The mfr's charge too much for the satellite teams to lease a bike from them. If you actually read anything about this sport you'd know that. The team heads have stated that the lease prices are too damn expensive and they were jumping head first to run a CRT bike because it's actually something they can afford to do and can procure sponsorship for. They cannot afford a prototype sat bike nor get a sponsor to pay for it.

The very definition of racing is contrary to economics, so talk that nonsense somewhere else. If you want to see a dumbed down prototype series, fine.........no problem with that........just make it it's own series and we'll see if it can survive on it's own. MotoGP should remain the upper echelon prototype series that it is, albeit with sensible revisions to the rules to carve out stupidly high costs in areas where engineers are winning races, and not the riders.

The mfr's don't want to cut costs on electronics, they also don't want to drop the prices on their leased bikes for satellite teams. So in a sense, it was CRT's or just have 12 bikes on the grid, which is not enough. Everyone bitching and moaning like you about this, well fine then. Let's take your model and apply it. Going the way it was going prior to Dorna fighting the mfr's, in a few more years you wouldn't have a series at all. You'd have Honda and Yamaha until Yamaha couldn't afford it any more. Ducati is lucky that Audi bought them or they would have been out, too much debt. That would have left 2 mfr's in this pinnacle series. Maybe you should read up on economics. Dorna didn't want CRT's either, it was just necessary in this economic climate and necessary due to the MSMA jacking shit up to the moon.

The spec ECU along, along with a couple other fixes are all that's needed. CRT is not it. The fans have said so, and the riders have said so (at least the ones who aren't shilling for their ride).

Well they don't want the spec ECU and it's taken all of this to let Honda know they will not run the series. Honda is trying to run to WSBK and leave GP due to that spec ECU. This press release was only released to let HRC know that running over there won't do them any good.

And try to keep in mind, I know it's hard for you, that these CRT bikes are at the beginning of their development. Emmett made a point recently at one of the tracks. The CRT's were 3 seconds away from the factories a lap. Honda's budget for the season, $50 million. The CRT, $500k. Those 3 seconds are worth 49.5 million dollars to Honda.

 

This is what you just can't comprehend.....not many can afford "top-flite prototype racing." Hence 3 mfr's only in the series.




Quit being an idiot. You mentioned Suter, FTR, etc, and how nobody can purchase those frames. They can, if they want to buy a frame instead of a home. My response to you was that what is in the dealer is a far cry from a MotoGP bike so it doesn't matter one way or the other. You cannot buy a Japanese bike with pneumatic valves, Honda doesn't have a production V4 sportbike currently (although they state one is on the way), Ducati doesn't have a current production V4 either. You also can't buy one with gas charged forks, ceramic rotors, tbt mapping, etc, etc. If a production racer has a Honda/Yamaha/Ducati/BMW motor, slap a mfr. logo across the lowers and there is your significance.



Regardless if you don't like the CRT's, they were a necessity to boost up the grid. You think anyone likes them? You think Dorna is doing back flips over this? Are you thick or something? The worldwide recession necessitated this, together with the MSMA driving up costs. 12 bikes on the grid is not enough. Every year we've seen a decrease in the number of bikes on that grid so what were they supposed to do? They've only had rule making authority (Dorna) since December of last year. CRT's are permanent, they were a chess move to tell the mfr's that if you keep it up we'll just go production racers only. The CRT formula is only a negotation tactic, and that's it. Go tell the world champ that there isn't an endless supply of money out there any more for this sport. That shit is gone. And don't tell me about sponsors, look at Colin's team. He's got a sponsor and the factory Yamaha team doesn't. What does that tell you? In fact all the CRT's have sponsors. Are they big name? You tell us grand master, but they are sponsors. Without these bikes you hate so much, those sponsors probably wouldn't be there. So with CRT's you've filled the grid up, got more sponsors in the sport, etc. Coke, Monster, or whomever is only going to sponsor a proto-bike because they want to be at the front.

And yes people do pay to see Depuniet on a CRT. Go to Lemans and you'll see it. Go to Indy, COTA, or Laguna next year and you'll see Colin Edwards fans there to see him.



LOL, wtf?



I'm damn proud to see things opposite of you. You see everything as black and white, it's this or that, no middle ground of any kind. And maybe that is why you have such a big problem with this and grasping it. CRT's are a direct result of financial issues both in and out of the sport. That is what you and Casey don't get. The money isn't there to field a full grid of prototypes. The mfr's charge too much for the satellite teams to lease a bike from them. If you actually read anything about this sport you'd know that. The team heads have stated that the lease prices are too damn expensive and they were jumping head first to run a CRT bike because it's actually something they can afford to do and can procure sponsorship for. They cannot afford a prototype sat bike nor get a sponsor to pay for it.



The mfr's don't want to cut costs on electronics, they also don't want to drop the prices on their leased bikes for satellite teams. So in a sense, it was CRT's or just have 12 bikes on the grid, which is not enough. Everyone bitching and moaning like you about this, well fine then. Let's take your model and apply it. Going the way it was going prior to Dorna fighting the mfr's, in a few more years you wouldn't have a series at all. You'd have Honda and Yamaha until Yamaha couldn't afford it any more. Ducati is lucky that Audi bought them or they would have been out, too much debt. That would have left 2 mfr's in this pinnacle series. Maybe you should read up on economics. Dorna didn't want CRT's either, it was just necessary in this economic climate and necessary due to the MSMA jacking shit up to the moon.



Well they don't want the spec ECU and it's taken all of this to let Honda know they will not run the series. Honda is trying to run to WSBK and leave GP due to that spec ECU. This press release was only released to let HRC know that running over there won't do them any good.

And try to keep in mind, I know it's hard for you, that these CRT bikes are at the beginning of their development. Emmett made a point recently at one of the tracks. The CRT's were 3 seconds away from the factories a lap. Honda's budget for the season, $50 million. The CRT, $500k. Those 3 seconds are worth 49.5 million dollars to Honda.

If you could just drop your caveman club long enough to actually read and grasp simple thoughts, you'd realize you're either intentionally misinterpreting what I have said, solely so you can make it fit in contrasting style to your story that you insist on injecting into every MotoGp thread, or you really are just that dense.

You seem to think I'm all for MotoGP having runaway costs and budgets, blah...blah...blah.....yet I've said exactly the opposite numerous times. You're still totally missing the point about the Suter, et al argument that they are not bike mfrs, rather component mfrs, and fans associate with the names; brands they like to support. Like Yamaha. 90% of the people on this forum alone are brand loyal Yamaha nuts, even in MotoGP, in SPITE of the fact they can not buy an M1, or pneumatically valve engines, and all the other things you like to vomit out that are simply techno-filler; it has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument.

If Ezpeleta is going to finally tell the mfr's "here's the rules. Period" instead of pandering towards a bunch of no-name wannabe teams and riders, then great, I'm all for it. If Honda leaves, fcvk them because if Kawi and Suzuki come back and BMW enters the field, then net result is +2 mfrs. Not to mention Honda will be back in a few years, but it will be on terms other than theirs. All wins IMO. What isn't a win is dumbing down the series as a method of cost reduction vs smart rules changes to eliminate the areas where cost is running away. There is nothing to say that CRT 'had to be done', and nothing to prove that it has had any positive effect. I can't find a single person that believes the bigger field is a positive when it's really 2 different classes on the track............well, except you. The riders definitely don't believe in it, but who are they anyways. :dundun:

 

Great read here fellas....
http://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/10/07/infront_dorna_bridgepoint_where_the_coup.html

 

^Indeed. Thanks for posting.

 

:corn

 

The choice of Magneti Marelli spec ECU I suspect is a key strategy by Dorna to lure BMW into the paddock, as is the max bore size of 81mm (currently the S1000RR bore). Melandri has been working hard with BMW on the Magneti Marelli suite with great success this year in WSBK and gives them a good starting point on some of the crossover circuits that WSBK shares with MotoGP.
It also heavily favours suzuki as the mitsubishi package they were running was really not up to spec to compete with the top factories, well unless it was raining and vermuelen was riding...
I think a rev limit is bullshit though, why not just ban pneumatic valve operation? Its a technology that will be unlikely to trickle down to road bikes due to complexity of fail over systems, neutering the bikes to 15500rpm is stupid and possibly hard to regulate.

 

Look guys, the bottom line is that it is what it is. Dorna's taking that sh*t and who the hell knows what he's gonna do with it. If wsbk isn't getting the money they like at any given point in time, Carmelo's made it clear to the world that he's gonna do something about it, for better or worse.

Now whether it's Honda shoving its fist up their @ss or Dorna crapping all over it, we'll just have to see what they do. Personally, I think Moto GP needed a fix, and even though it sucks to dumb down bikes, at least it gives companies like Attack the chance to try their hand at it. CRT was just the solution we were given and like it or not, we've got no choice but to eat the sh*t sandwich we've been given for the picnic.

Now let's just hope that wsbk gets the support it needs so we can continue to enjoy it before they end up with something like CRT.

 

wow