Ducati is it's own worst enemy. Plain and simple. They're convinced that they are doing everything right and that they are doing what is needed.

Athea racing took a bike that was not competitive last year and have owned WSBK with it. Their engineers are dimwits, I saw a couple of them at Indy and they talked about the problems of this year. They are unwilling to admit that CF isn't a proper medium to use in a frame, and that the flex point around the motor are enough for proper flex and feel.

 

I've heard Ducati is going to an aluminum perimeter frame....wonder why they would do that......Hmmmmmm?

 

Doesn't bode well for the 2012 season at all...if Rossi and Burgess can't fix it, who can? I wonder how well their philosophy will work on their road bike?

 

Apples to oranges. The requirements for a street bike versus MotoGP bike are not even in the same league. The street version of the Desmosedici bike - No owner's bitchin that they're struggling with rear traction or front end feedback.

 

a while ago there was a post here, a link to david emmets comments on that, pretty good imo, you should find something on motomatters.com

 

Simply? They're outclassed. Won the lottery in 07 with electronics and Stoner.

Even if Rossi was allowed free reign to make a Yamacati, he couldn't have succeeded anyway. Ducati doesn't have the manufacturing capability to compete. I'm not sure they make a single part on that thing anymore.

The elephant in the room is VR & Nicky.

The fast guys are all a lot younger. Casey, Jorge, Dani, Marco, Dovi, Ben average what....24? Not a coincidence

 

Well, just two years ago Rossi won a world title. If his last world title had been 5 or more years ago, I might agree. He was still able to get a few wins last year too, so he's still fast.

 

Ducati is coming off of a self-imposed 3+ year development deficit.

They have been telling world class riders that the bike is fine, they simply need to "adapt" their styles to suit the bike. That bike has been a nail in the coffin of a number of proven rider's careers.

To ignore the big picture concepts, like the role of a frame in a motorcycle is ridiculous for a company in their position. When a bike is leaned over from say 45-60+ degrees, and asking the most of the tires in combined lateral (cornering) and longitudinal (braking) force, the suspension is at a terribly inefficient angle to track along the pavement surface. Even if things are perfect and frictionless inside the forks, tracking over a one inch bump at full lean angle would require 2" of suspension travel and would double bump speed. I don't know what kind of fancy valving spec's they are using, but it's a bad thing regardless for tuneability. Add back in the extra friction induced from the forces being input at large angles to the fork legs, and things continue to degrade.

Some torsional (rotational) flex from the steering head, along with lateral flex from the fork assembly, can help to accommodate this. An aluminum frame can be easily tuned to find the sweet spot, where the bike has geometric integrity, yet is compliant enough. You can even tune on the fly by making cuts, drilling holes, welding reinforcements, etc. Carbon fiber just seems like a silly, flashy choice.

 

+1

Another point the engineer and lead developer talked about was the fact that the 07-08 bikes had a completely different composition CF in them than what is in them now. They also talked about the fact that each frontal piece of cf had different flex patterns and oscillation times. How the heck can you tune a bike when each part is different than the one before and after it?

 

answer is they cant
but they are shifting back too the ali frame and 2012 is starting too look better...
after the race see Vals comments, had much better front feel.. at least they are pointing in the right direction now , hopefully the continue along that road....

would be good too see a 4 way fight ... so we need a fit val on a fast duke , casey, a fit stoner, spies flying and his bens number 2 support rider , JL, playing nicely!

 

07-08 still used the trellis, they swapped over to CF in 09

 

Then I guess the engineer doesn't speak english well enough to convey his point.

 

Seems like having a single guy leading your design program may have been a touch foolish.....Casey is pure genius for having the guts to ride that thing to a few wins last year, the CF 'frame' idea has proven to be virtually unrideable by too many riders for it to be a coincidence. Ducati talks of its reluctance to move away from its vision of the future...well that ancient trellis frame is doing the business in WSBK so why not pull out the 07/08 GP bikes for rossi and see what he thinks.....I recall Casey mentioning the front was good on his 07 bike....at least with all the old bikes they could figure which update actually turned the bike to the also ran it has become. I suspect it will be as soon as the CF bike appeared......GP's need Rossi around for a while yet but not an uncompetetive Rossi.

 

Vale finished ahead of SToner in the championship last year and he missed 4 complete races due to the leg break. That isn't a Rossi vs. Stoner thing, it shows that Ducati should have changed their design philosophy a few years ago. 3 wins and 5 DNF's due to the front end should have told them something. They should have listened to Stoner, they didn't, and it's taking a combination of VR/JB to change their mind now. I'm convinced that JB/VF abandoned this season early on as they knew, after going against the 212v's in pre season testing that the bike was no where near that level. Forget 2010 this is 2011.

 

Holy crap! I actually agree with you.:hammer: haha, really I do think you hit the nail on the head this time!

 

an interesting fact that will affect next season:
While Duc are working hard at trying to get the duc to go faster, Honda, has had their budget cut by 30% for next season.
Yep, 30%. thats huge. so theyre cutting back, while ducati are spending loads of coins trying to improve the bike. Last time honda had a thou, it was the V5 wasnt it? so theyll be trialling a new engine configuration at that displacement, on a substantaially smaller budget than they currently have.

Also, the cost of Factory Honda lease bikes is going up by a fair amount, which will be interesting for teams and riders like simoncelli, more money on the lease, less money to spend elsewhere.

next year the ball game will change a LOT, and most teams probably wont get their bikes consistent untill halfway through the season.

 

Good to see that ducati is returning to FIM competition next year in SS class and SBK class in 2013.

 

They get their 1798cc motor approved?

 

Most of which you apparently did not understand.

 

:lol

I'm sure you'd like to think so

 

If you want anyone to respect your opinion, then justify it with rational thought instead of snarky comments.

 

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/s...sportresults/MotoGP/2011/September/sep2211-nothing-left-from-gp111-says-hayden/

Now bear in mind the 11.1 was at first what they were going to roll out for 2012 and was considered the GP12. Goes to show you, there is a massive design flaw that Ducati is suffereing from. They need to change it if they want to remain competitive. Look at Kawasaki. I was saying for years before that they needed to revamp their entire design because it was like a see-saw. They would fix rear tyre control on entry/exit but that would mess up the front. they then fixed the front, then the rear would revert to being poor. They (Kawi) simply refused to dump more money and resources into their GP effort and gave up with it.

Last year Del Torchio (CEO of Ducati) clearly said that they wouldn't be doing a great deal of revamping/retooling on this years bike as they had already established it, and that their focus would be on developing the 2012 bike with Rossi. Well, the first iteration of the GP11 sucked so bad they had to break out the early GP12 (enter the GP11.1) so you can honestly say that both this years bike AND the bike they were casting to start with next year were utter crap. Now I don't hold Hayden as a superior bike developer but he can at least ride a big bike. Neither of them look at ease on that bike. It just plain sucks imho.

 

Would have to agree. Rossi hasn't looked like his normal self all season and by that I don't mean the results page. I'm talking about how he looks on the bike lap after lap. Nicky seems less comfortable since the upgrade as well. Preziosi must be huffing on fumes.

 

Unless PFM happens, next year will not be much different.

Strat, I thought it was just me that said they looked extremely awkward on the bike.

 

PFM? Even looking over my pics from Laguna over the past 3 years, Rossi just looked different on the Ducati this year compared to the M1 the previous two. His BP is more tight and hunched, while as his BP seems looser and opened.

2010-

2011-

I know, feet in the turn make a difference, but he just seems not as opened up on the Duc vs. the M1. Just my .02

 

PFM = Pure Fvckin' Magic. :thumbup

 

here is another example-

 

Let's compare Hayden. He looks actually similar, knee is out more in 2011 than 2010. Both photos taken from Sunday race warmup so this 2011 warm up HAD to be the GP11 and not the GP11.1 as he only used that in FP1 iirc.

2010-

2011-

 

here's a write up of the double secret probation test Rossi did in Jerez.

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2011/09/22/ducati_s_secret_jerez_test_rossi_faster_.html

 

here's a write up of the double secret probation test Rossi did in Jerez.

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2011/09/22/ducati_s_secret_jerez_test_rossi_faster_.html

Was Rossi using a 800cc on that test(wishful thinking)? I'm guessing not because if he was using his 1000cc and still over 2 tenth's outside Stoner's pole time from this year.....:shake. And the rumor is Honda's new 1000cc is already 2sec's faster than the 800cc bike, wow.

 

Ducati reminds me Britten V1000. They probably thought "We can do it like John Britten." Problem is they don't have the genius like John in their development team. Genius possesses the ability that beyond numbers and conventional laws.

I have no doubt JB and Rossi is capable of winning races.

http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/britten.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten_V1000

 

Ducati reminds me Britten V1000. They probably thought "We can do it like John Britten." Problem is they don't have the genius like John in their development team. Genius possesses the ability that beyond numbers and conventional laws.

I have no doubt JB and Rossi is capable of winning races.
http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/britten.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten_V1000

If your talking in general ok, if your talking about on the Ducati though I have lots of doubts!