I don't personally believe that it would make you more likely to highside....... but it might make you more likely to fall off the inside in a situation that would otherwise have caused a highside.

Let me explain. A highside happens when the rear of the bike slides and then grabs suddenly. This causes the rear end to come back into line with the front while the bike simultaneously stands up. The net effect is that the bike will catapult the rider into orbit.

However, if you're hanging off the inside "too far" and the bike starts to slide, you might fall off the bike when the slide starts or when it grabs. We've all seen this type of thing on video and I've done it myself..... (although I didn't crash.....I simply dragged my lower body beside the bike for 100 yards.)

I hope that makes sense.

 

:iamwithst

I guess it all depends on the rider/situation. You see some pro guys hanging waaaay off sometimes. Then again, they are trying to wrestle a superbike around a corner and those dudes are about as built as a 12 year old kid :lol

For us mortals, hanging off too much on the inside could put more pressure on the inside peg (because your ability to keep your outside knee locked into the tank would be hampered). Too much pressure on the inside peg means your bike is more likely to start sliding. Not a problem, if you know to expect it:sneaky

 

As far as I know, there is a limit in hanging off the bike. For example, look at KneeDragger's favorite pic (or his avatar). He doesn't have any place left to hang off..

For a given corner speed, you can hang off a bit more to bring the bike a bit more upright. But when you increase the corner speed, you have to lean the bike more to compensate for the speed. If you're not doing it - you didn't gain anything.

And there is a downside to hanging off extremely far while keeping the bike upright - you're not using all possible corner speed (by not bringing the bike to the max possible lean), and the control of the bike gets worse..

There are people with much more knowledge on the subject, I hope they'll correct me if I made a mistake somewhere.

 

http://www.foreven.com/trackdod/NoviceGuide/

 

Thanks guys. One thing I'm asking about in particular is where do you put your chest? I agree that your a$$ hangs off about as much as possible, but most people seem to hang off with their chest mostly over the tank. Why not hang your chest way off too?

 

:iamwithst

I guess it all depends on the rider/situation. You see some pro guys hanging waaaay off sometimes. Then again, they are trying to wrestle a superbike around a corner and those dudes are about as built as a 12 year old kid :lol

For us mortals, hanging off too much on the inside could put more pressure on the inside peg (because your ability to keep your outside knee locked into the tank would be hampered). Too much pressure on the inside peg means your bike is more likely to start sliding. Not a problem, if you know to expect it:sneaky

True. But that's why you MUST keep weight on your outside peg at all times.

12 yr. old kid....:lol

 

Thanks guys. One thing I'm asking about in particular is where do you put your chest? I agree that your a$$ hangs off about as much as possible, but most people seem to hang off with their chest mostly over the tank. Why not hang your chest way off too?

Well, the thing is, from my own experience, hanging off with your a$$ doesn't bring much. Rather slide it around the bike and a bit down..
The position that works the best for me, after some corrections from the people here, is 1/2 butt off the seat, and head near where the right mirror would be. The moving of the head gave me extra lean angle.

But I have way more ground clearance, and it still lacks a bit.. So I don't know, maybe it's better for you to hang off more.

 

Hanging off
You don't need to hang off unless you're dragging bike parts consistently. Hanging off moves you around on the bike, changes your physical position and view, and alters the way the bike responds -- exactly what we don't want when we're concentrating on line and smoothness.

So I don't want anyone hanging off -- not at first, anyway. If you're dragging parts, you've reached the maximum speed you can do on that line -- and there are things you can do to reduce the need for clearance in a turn by changing your line, without hanging off. If you're consistently dragging, talk to me and we'll work on it -- which may include hanging off if you want.

 

Hanging off
You don't need to hang off unless you're dragging bike parts consistently. Hanging off moves you around on the bike, changes your physical position and view, and alters the way the bike responds -- exactly what we don't want when we're concentrating on line and smoothness.

So I don't want anyone hanging off -- not at first, anyway. If you're dragging parts, you've reached the maximum speed you can do on that line -- and there are things you can do to reduce the need for clearance in a turn by changing your line, without hanging off. If you're consistently dragging, talk to me and we'll work on it -- which may include hanging off if you want.

I see you don't believe he was reading the article you gave.. :lol.
He stated that unless he hangs off, the pegs on EX500 drag. If he doesn't know the best lines through corners, it's another issue - but if what's stopping him from going faster, he has to hang off.

 

I disagree......not hanging off enough, even if you're not scraping parts, can result in a crash. Safer to hang off and have the bike at a less severe lean angle, on the fatter part of the tire, than simply keep leaning over until parts scrape and then hang off. A friend of mine crashed at a trackday earlier this year, and it was almost totally attributed to not hanging off enough/too much bike lean angle.

If you notice how far I'm off the bike in this picture---I can go around this turn just as fast as people leaning the bike way over yet my bike isn't leaned over nearly as far as theirs.

I agree with Abe on this. Mintaining the best contact patch has to be prevalent as it is what all inputs are handled through. In my opinion.... nice pic abe

 

I disagree......not hanging off enough, even if you're not scraping parts, can result in a crash. Safer to hang off and have the bike at a less severe lean angle, on the fatter part of the tire, than simply keep leaning over until parts scrape and then hang off. A friend of mine crashed at a trackday earlier this year, and it was almost totally attributed to not hanging off enough/too much bike lean angle.

If you notice how far I'm off the bike in this picture---I can go around this turn just as fast as people leaning the bike way over yet my bike isn't leaned over nearly as far as theirs.

Could it be possible? That Abe and I agree on this topic?

Yes, more hang off = less lean angle = you go faster around a turn.

Try going through a turn sitting straight up and down. It will freak you out because you have to get so much lean angle on the bike in order to carry speed. Not to mention your body position will be out of wack. That article posted had some good points, but it was still just the opinion of someone. Dont take everything there as gospel. You have to develop your own style.

 

another photo:

besides the obvious "hang" there is also a swivel that takes place around the gas tank. Its not all off the seat to one side.

 

You've got a real Doohan-swivel style hang-off, mine is more Eric Bostrom, I get my upper body off a lot too. I like to really look around the side of the fairing with my head way down rather than over the screen.


Did you see Tamada at Motegi? They were all getting majorly unprecedented lean angle on a couple of turns at that track, and Tamada hangs off more than just about anyone, I swear his ass was like an inch off the ground at one point.

That is what is so cool, totally different styles but accomplishing the same thing. There is no "one right way" to do it. Sure, the principles are the same, but how you adapt them for your own use might differ from someone else. I've tried your style of riding and I just cant get comfortable with it. I think I could put my head down a bit more, but I like to look over the windscreen.

I didnt see the Motegi race, but you dont have to tell me. Those dudes are sick. :fact

 

I disagree......not hanging off enough, even if you're not scraping parts, can result in a crash. Safer to hang off and have the bike at a less severe lean angle, on the fatter part of the tire, than simply keep leaning over until parts scrape and then hang off. A friend of mine crashed at a trackday earlier this year, and it was almost totally attributed to not hanging off enough/too much bike lean angle.

If you notice how far I'm off the bike in this picture---I can go around this turn just as fast as people leaning the bike way over yet my bike isn't leaned over nearly as far as theirs.

The article quoted is for novice track riders not intended for more advanced riders like Abe/kneedragger77.

The article does say he does not want riders hanging off at first, at least until they get some quilty time in.

I hang off a bit :thumbup

 

Thanks guys. Hey r1gladiator, I did read your link (actually I had read it awhile ago also). I've got the basics down and I'm looking to improve my technique. I'll probably give the "extreme hangoff" (Froman style) a try and if I can't get comfortable I'll go for the less extreme KneeDragger style.

 

I believe Kneedragger77' style demands more concentration in respect with looking to the corner exit. I myself ride more in the style of bostrom as Abe suggested. I find this allows me to ride through the corner with my head, avoid target fixation. The upright style has me feeling trapped visually more forward.... Just my deal I guess.

The latter point of many styles, similiar result and is very true... The fastest guy I ever rode with look like a statue on his bike with almost no movement... to each there own as the final proof is in the times (if on a track)

 

Regarding EX500s and hanging off. I'll grant you that this particular EX is modified, but:

 

Side by side...

 

Side by side...

Their butts are in about the same place, but their chests are quite a bit different. It seems like the one on the right would need less lean angle for a given corner at a given speed, and therefore would be able to take corners faster in general.

 

Their butts are in about the same place, but their chests are quite a bit different. It seems like the one on the right would need less lean angle for a given corner at a given speed, and therefore would be able to take corners faster in general.

I think you're missing the point, and try to explain :

If he needs less lean angle for a given corner at a GIVEN SPEED - it doesn't mean that he's faster, because he's AT A GIVEN SPEED.

If he increases the speed, since he has no room left for hanging off even more, he'll have to compensate the extra speed by LEANING HIS BIKE FURTHER RATHER THAN HIMSELF - remember, he can't hang off any more! So eventually he'll get into almost the same position as the one on the left. Means, by the way, that the initial impression of needing less lean angle was wrong. It carries only until a certain point, when the rider can't hang off any more - and then both styles reach almost the same position.

The one on the left, though, has almost all the resources in the game - both hanging off and leaning the bike. The only thing that can add to his corner speed is to move the head/chest a bit more down and off (the same thing that Sabian suggested for me, and it works) - it can add the final 2-3 mph.

So, it's not an indication of going fast or slow. It's an indication of preferred control style. And in the given situation, I'd guess the left one (KneeDragger) carries a higher speed for the corner.

Somehow, riders seem to defeat the laws of physics in this area... There is no one "good" thing. I also see some fast riders hanging off a lot, and other faster riders barely hanging off. But all the fastest riders, when taking corners at their fastest speeds, look alike, the only difference is that some swivel (move the a$$ a bit forward along the tank) and some don't.

 

Abe, we still reach the same problem : amount of space available for hanging off is limited.

Say, you hang off as in your picture, and someone else has the body in the same position, but with a bike leaned as well. He isn't hanging off much anymore, because the bike is leaning harder than in your picture. I suppose there's no argument that he'll carry higher corner speed, right?
Now, say you can brake a bit deeper and get on a gas a bit earlier, but he's faster at the apex. Is there a single formula to decide, what will be the final outcome - who'll get faster to the finish line? I don't think so...


By the way, once on our local forum, there was an interesting argument about the relation between contact patch and maximum input.. By laws of physics, it doesn't matter, it might only matter when you factor probabilities in the equation, and not by a large margin. Riding on a 190/50 tire, for example, had me "on the edge" of the tire, having almost 0 contact patch, and still, it didn't differ in stability from my current 180/55. Neither slipped even under heavy throttle...

 

Hm, interesting read but obviously there are some misconceptions on why to hang off.
First of all, it doesn't matter at all if your weight is on the inside or the outside peg as far as grip on a flat surface is concerned (it does have an impact in case of bumps, see below).
In a curve two forces are acting on the tire: Gravity (pretty much a constant if there are no bumps) and centrifugal force (depending on radius of the curve and speed).
Gravity is allways pointing towards the center of earth while centrifugal force is pointing radially out of the curve. Both forces act on the combined center of gravity (CG) of man/machine.
When summing up these two components, the resulting force vector allway has to run through the contact point between tire and road, otherwise the whole thing would be out of balance.
I have added a picture for reference.

For those not familiar with drawing forces as a vector, the length of the arrow is indicating the magnitude while the direction obviously shows the direction. Forces may be added by simply connecting them. If you put the starting point of the green arrow on the tip of the blue arrow, you are adding gravity and centrifugal force and are getting the red arrow, what is the "combined resulting force.

For simplicity I used the pic from this thread, please imagine the rider sitting on top of the bike, without hanging off in this first case. I have drawn the arrows for this case: The combined man/machine CG is "in line" with the vertical of the bike. The lean angle is defined directly by the two forces gravity and centrifugal force. Note that the resulting force runs throught the road/tire point of contact and is not exactly in line with the bike. This demonstrates how wide tires call for more lean angle than small ones because the contact point shifts to the inside of the curve.
Now how about hanging off?

 

I hope I wasn't taken wrong. I was just implying the difference of the Bostrom/Doohan example. My talent or lack of is not even worth comparing to either. However the sitting posture and 'style' of hanging off is what I was suggesting. I agree with you Abe and believe maintaining the most contact edge available is paramount, especially given unsmooth roads, unsmooth car drivers, and my sometimes not so smooth riding (no matter my substantial efforts to ride smooth). Traction is king

 

By hanging off, the CG of man/machine is moved inwards. This means that gracity and centrifugal force are acting on a different point.
For the same lean angle the biker will be able to take that curve faster.
In this second drawing the length of the gravity arrow is unchanged (weight doesn't change), but check out how much centrifugal force (green) is needed to have the resulting force (red) run through the contact point between tire and road, to have everything in balance. Or put the other way round, for the same lean angle much higher speeds can be run in the curve!

 

Hm, interesting read but obviously there are some misconceptions on why to hang off.
First of all, it doesn't matter at all if your weight is on the inside or the outside peg as far as grip on a flat surface is concerned (it does have an impact in case of bumps, see below).
In a curve two forces are acting on the tire: Gravity (pretty much a constant if there are no bumps) and centrifugal force (depending on radius of the curve and speed).
Gravity is allways pointing towards the center of earth while centrifugal force is pointing radially out of the curve. Both forces act on the combined center of gravity (CG) of man/machine.
When summing up these two components, the resulting force vector allway has to run through the contact point between tire and road, otherwise the whole thing would be out of balance.
I have added a picture for reference.

For those not familiar with drawing forces as a vector, the length of the arrow is indicating the magnitude while the direction obviously shows the direction. Forces may be added by simply connecting them. If you put the starting point of the green arrow on the tip of the blue arrow, you are adding gravity and centrifugal force and are getting the red arrow, what is the "combined resulting force.

For simplicity I used the pic from this thread, please imagine the rider sitting on top of the bike, without hanging off in this first case. I have drawn the arrows for this case: The combined man/machine CG is "in line" with the vertical of the bike. The lean angle is defined directly by the two forces gravity and centrifugal force. Note that the resulting force runs throught the road/tire point of contact and is not exactly in line with the bike. This demonstrates how wide tires call for more lean angle than small ones because the contact point shifts to the inside of the curve.
Now how about hanging off?

So to hang of is more ideal then??