[tzrider]

What you said was "but the angle will be pretty steady until you push the bars". This is what I take issue with. If you move the CG the amount of your body from one side to the other the bike will react.

I see you're from SoCal. Let's say you're approaching turn 1 at Willow, big track. You hang off the bike before you get to the turn to set up in advance. How much does the bike lean?

I know, I know, you're going to say, but you're countersteering the other way to hold your line. And so I am. What if you could borrow Code's No BS bike to try the same thing? How much would the bike lean if you hung off at speed approaching turn 1?

Granted, hanging off would have an effect on the bike, but how much and how fast would the bike lean? No math, just real world, no BS experience.

Over,

ab

 

[winders]

Andy,

How much affect leaning off a bike prior to turn in has on how much the bike will lean without countsteering input depends on several factors.

One of the major factors is bike setup. A bike with a lot of trail and shallow rake angle will not lean as much when you hang off compared to a bike with less trail and steeper rake angle. A bike with centralized mass will lean more when hang than a bilke with less centralized mass.

I don't think anyone here is saying you can turn a bike quickly and accurately into a corner without countersteering.

What Balistic is saying, and he is right, is that the hanging off more or less will either cause the bike's line to change or, if the same line is be maintained, require the rider to adjust the lean angle of the bike. Physics dictates this and it cannot be denied.

Scott

 

[GXRKLR]

OMG, still going at 33 pages.

I think if they would rename it we would have no problem. Instead of saying I used body steering in that corner it would be I used body english in that corner.

I think everyone agree's that leaning off the bike will cause it to change direction. But you are not actually "steering " it. The only way to "steer" a bike is through the handle bars. I can change the direction of my truck by rolling the window down on one side. But we dont call it window steering.

I hang off the bike like a monkey. But it's to alter the CG so that when I do steer the bike with the bars I get the results that I want.

 

[winders]

Anything done by the rider that causes the bike to alter its course is steering. Saying that steering can be done using the handlebars only is overly simplistic.

Scott

 

[GXRKLR]

You can over simplify the subject but I don't believe that I have done that. I have covered just enough so the person will understand with out going so into depth that they cease to care or that thye get so lost in the math or proper lingo that they loose site of the principle.

Then there is the difference in definition of steering. Yours is different than mine. There are a few instances that I might call it steering. Say into a corner you find you might be a little to fast but you have turned the bars as far as you are comfortable with then I will lean off more to keep my line. I still kind of agree with you, but I would say that calling it steering may give some of the newer folks to the sport a hard time understanding.

Just for my info, what sequence do you follow setting up and going through a turn?

 

[crash2]

how bout that Bayliss guy eh? ...did ya see that last race?

he's been all over that bike lately and it's been working for him:bow

 

[vagab0nd]

is the question better said HOW DO I BECOME AWARE OF MY COUNTER STEERING???/ because that is what it should be, once you gain awarness you gain faster track times, as you also gain an ability to manipulate the truns, try doing this...
i show how it works by doing lane changes,
one in the normal knee drag fasion , and one in the aware of my counter steer forcer counter steer, the lane change takes longer kneedraging and is a snap with couter steer.
and a good quality dampner is a great asscet for this as you can give a more aggressive counter steer when you know you are not going to destroy the radius of the turn.

 

[spdfrq]

The Great Debate!

Wow! Still an active thread. Good Stuff!

Winders, I agree, anything you do with your body will effect the bike one way or another. There are many factors that play into how much of an effect or what kind of an effect.

I say this, go out and ride. Spend the entire ride holding the bars as lightly as possible. Try to touch them light enough just to opperate the throttle. With this extreamly light touch you can feel every little steering input. If you feel yourself active on the bars guess what, thats CS.

Crash2, What about bayliss? Yes, he has some stability issues. Look at Edwards or Rossi and you have smoothness. The more you move around the more unstable the bike potential. No doubt that Baliss is good but I dont this his body position is his strong point. Also he the the HP king this year and that bike is super fast!!! BTW, cool picture.

 

[tzrider]

What Balistic is saying, and he is right, is that the hanging off more or less will either cause the bike's line to change or, if the same line is be maintained, require the rider to adjust the lean angle of the bike. Physics dictates this and it cannot be denied.

And I'm not denying it myself. My own contribution to the thread has drifted from originally acknowledging that you can cause lean angle changes with your body to sounding as if I disagree with that. I don't and never have.

The question to me has always been a matter of how much effect you get from how much effort on the bike. You know I have my opinions on that and I know we don't fully agree.

I may as well let the cat out of the bag and tell you that Ballistic and I have known each other for years. He's the guy who was chasing me around Buttonwillow on a CSS ZX the day you saw me toss my TZ. Ballistic didn't know who I was on this thread until a few days ago; I was tweaking him.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, I do know for a fact that you can hang off a motorcycle pretty far at speed in a straight line without having the bike change line very much at all. I can also make the bike under the same conditions turn more noticably according to the manner in which I move into the hangoff position.

This goes back to the idea of initiating movement across the bike relatively gently but impacting the tank with your outside leg once you reach the hangoff. This will cause a sharper direction change, though not as sharp as you can manage with the bars. Nobody really rides in the manner I'm describing above. Most people I've discussed body steering with will tell me that their body movements are very subtle. My experience says subtle movements produce almost undetectable results.

There is no doubt whatsoever that body position on the bike affects line and/or lean angle. CSS has more than one drill designed to show students just that, in fact.

Good to run into you here.

ab

 

[Balistic]

how bout that Bayliss guy eh? ...did ya see that last race?

he's been all over that bike lately and it's been working for him:bow

HI crash2
I have been watching Bayliss for a long time and he has always been a monkey on the bike. What do you see now that is different from the last from the last few years? Or is it just the extra 50 horse?

 

[Balistic]

Andy,


What Balistic is saying, and he is right, is that the hanging off more or less will either cause the bike's line to change or, if the same line is be maintained, require the rider to adjust the lean angle of the bike. Physics dictates this and it cannot be denied.

Thank you winders, I am honered by your endorsment.:bow :bow

 

[crash2]

HI crash2
I have been watching Bayliss for a long time and he has always been a monkey on the bike. What do you see now that is different from the last from the last few years? Or is it just the extra 50 horse?

no significant difference in riding style. ..just merely pointing out the fact that his 'monkey' habits add to the countersteering inputs.

Also, notice on Rossi's victory lap, he riding with hands off the bars, and he picks up the bike up from a left lean to a right lean ..using his body.

I realize that this topic has completed quite a few laps already. Maybe the white flag is near. I think the last thing that needed to be done was determine a definition of body steering. Keith Code already has a definition of countersteering but no one has anything for body steering.:beer

 

[Balistic]

no significant difference in riding style. ..just merely pointing out the fact that his 'monkey' habits add to the countersteering inputs.

Also, notice on Rossi's victory lap, he riding with hands off the bars, and he picks up the bike up from a left lean to a right lean ..using his body.

I realize that this topic has completed quite a few laps already. Maybe the white flag is near. I think the last thing that needed to be done was determine a definition of body steering. Keith Code already has a definition of countersteering but no one has anything for body steering.:beer

HI crash2
As you know I am a cs guy in the extreem. However I get into doing things that could only be defined as bs, example going over turn 6 at willow on my 9. I go nutral on the throttle going over the peak at the apex then roll on untill the rear is spinning then the second elivation change I have had a hard time getting the bike to stand up and finnish the corner(no weight on the front). I was using cs and getting tired of the bike trying to buck me off, so one time I tried crossing my torso over the bike and was able to go over the change without the bike complaining. This isn't something I would teach someone to use and I can't explain why it worked only that does.
The guage I use is how does the bike feel. if the bike is complaining I try something else untill I can get it settled.
Will

 

[Rick2kR-1]

33 pages of replies, good god, apparently we also attracted the attention of a "Sport Bike" Editor/columnist and a Famous racing school instructor.

I'm new to road bikes and my first bike is a 2000 R-1, which I handle confidently and safely due to a combination of what I'd like to call natural talent and sufficient instruction along with years of dirtbike riding. Dirtbikes give throttle and clutch familiarty but dont get me wrong, its a whole different world than sport bikes.

I haven't had track day's or Superbike classes or none of that good stuff yet, and I'm not a physics proffesor, the only training I have recieved is through a 2 day course with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation where they teach you the fundamentals.

Among these fundamentals are counter-steering, counter-weighting, slow speed manuevers (the lovely figure 8 in a red box yay), swerving, emergency braking, crossing over obstacles, and cornering. No matter how you ride I think its all gonna boil down to the same general principles.

Counter-weighting I havent found necessary for cornering at high speeds whatsoever, maybe leaning down a little more towards the tank but I can bring the bike completely down within an inch of dragging the pegs and stick the line i choose, without putting my knee down, or crawling all over the bike like a monkey however I do hug the gas tank with my knees at all times because this is the riding posture I was taught, hug the tank with your knees, no weight on the handlebars whatsoever, lower back holds you up, when you put weight on the bars, the bike isnt as responsive and your palms start to hurt, along with the fact that your probably stiff armed which gives less room for your arms to extend your arms and push on the bar to intiate the counter steer.

Counter-weighting and BS may be different things entirely but I cant imagine BS being anything more than small movements you dont even notice you're doing that is your bodies natural reaction to forces exerted on it and/or change of direction. The only time I have found myself hanging off of my bike is doing low low speed manuevers, like the figure 8 in a small box, by hanging off the bike to the left you can turn to the right in a slower,tighter line and your body weight opposite the the weight of the bike holds it up rather than dropping the bike on its side, kinda like centrifical force or something, only not.

Swerving was taught in a manner i believe to be lacking of BS but maybe i misinterpreted the concept, but i know how to apply it, swerving from a car or other obstacle means keeping your body movement INDEPENDENT of the Bikes movement, i.e. to swerve left, youd lean the bike, left-right-left, but your body stays centered over the middle of the bike so theres not your big 230lb frame to slow the reaction time of the bike.

However in high speed esses I do notice that getting the weight off your seat and leaning your body opposite the direction the bike is leaned in, helps to get the bike upright and leaned in the opposite direction faster and it feels more stable.

And maybe someone else posted a reply similar to mine somewhere between page 11 and 33 but I couldnt read it any longer, it was going in circles, it was like a flame board "You dont know sh__"... "whatevah whatevah i do what i want"....

I think it's all about the rider, but someone said the general idea is that BS isnt effective without CS, which is entirely true, and i dont give a flyin fook who says otherwise.

I probably added absolutely nothing to this thread, but damn it looked fun, had to throw my tid bit of info in.

So just from my un-educated observations, I would say body steering is a natural occurance that AIDS counter-steering but is not a sole method of control on a motorcycle.:yesnod :yesnod

 

[Rick2kR-1]

And to the guy who swears he got ripped off by the CSS and doesnt want to pay his bill because they put him in a class he shouldnt have been in, best advice I can give to you is get the attitude that in every business transaction or purchase of a service/item whatever, someone is going to try and get over on you, dont be obnoxious about it, but its your money, the person answering the phone probably knows less about what your talking about than your dog does, theyre just selling a service and if you say "Sign me up for the advanced class for experienced riders" all they're going to hear is "Sign me up yadda yadda blah blah yadda blah", if they can't give you guarantees don't give them your money, its not the mafia man, its your money, dont let people swindle you out of it because your afraid to exert your authority that investing umpteen-hundred dollars in a particular industry gives you, you're making their payroll so essentially you're their boss, make them work for you, dont just hand out the magic numbers and hope its what you wanted.

I'm an american living in Japan at the moment and this attitude has gotten me by on several transactions, most of them werent shady deals, but if it works when you cant even communicate verbally, just point, grunt and pull out money, and i can get replies to what i want, you certainly can with those who speak the same language.

And as far as wrecking the bike goes, I dunno man, mixed feelings on that one, but basically you rode DEPENDING on someone elses knowledge and experience, you took their word as gospel, and even though you werent on the specified course, you shouldve assumed if you leaned hard enough, SOMETHING was going to happen, be it good or bad, personally I wouldnt put myself in a position to ride a bike with no brake or clutch control in a small area, but thats just me... Bottom line, you were on the bike, you were in "control" so to speak, fook what someone else says, keep yourself safe.... Sue, it's the American way!

 

[tzrider]

And to the guy who swears he got ripped off by the CSS and doesnt want to pay his bill because they put him in a class he shouldnt have been in, best advice I can give to you is get the attitude that in every business transaction or purchase of a service/item whatever, someone is going to try and get over on you, dont be obnoxious about it, but its your money, the person answering the phone probably knows less about what your talking about than your dog does, theyre just selling a service and if you say "Sign me up for the advanced class for experienced riders" all they're going to hear is "Sign me up yadda yadda blah blah yadda blah", if they can't give you guarantees don't give them your money, its not the mafia man, its your money, dont let people swindle you out of it because your afraid to exert your authority that investing umpteen-hundred dollars in a particular industry gives you, you're making their payroll so essentially you're their boss, make them work for you, dont just hand out the magic numbers and hope its what you wanted.

Sorry for the long quote; it was a long sentence.

While what you say may be true of some businesses, it would be suicide for CSS to run this way. Why? Its clientele are extraordinarily well connected to each other through forums like this one, for one thing. If a company regularly rips lots of riders off, you can be sure you'll read about it online. While there are a handful of folks who don't like the CSS program, they are in the minority.

My experience with CSS (I'm an instructor with them) says that the whole organization is concerned about each and every individual's progress and satisfaction. We survey every student, every school day and someone will contact any survey respondent who didn't even *seem* happy, to find out what happened. It's one of the most extreme cases of being interested in customer satisfaction I have personally encountered.

Along the same lines, the people who answer the phones know the program pretty well. Many have been there for years; many have at least taken the classes or worked in other capaciities within the school to get a good idea of how the operation runs, how it interacts with students and what a given student can expect.

Sorry if I've crossed the line into advertising, as that's not my intent. In posting this reply, I'm suggesting that businesses aren't all trying to take advantage of their customers. Some realize that their life blood is happy customers who will return and tell their friends. Don't take my word alone; when you're interested in signing up, call the school and see how the conversation goes. Ask questions and see if you get useful answers.

ab

 

[ducatiWV]

Just a side note to all the debate....one of my riding buddies, who has ridden for years. Self taught , he is an amazingly fast and smooth streetrider. I've never seen him lean off the bike whatsoever... I just recently started to notice this since reading Keiths books and also reading this thread... I am sold on countersteering , I do think it is the quickest way to turn a bike, and my riding has improved greatly just by practicing this technique......sorry to interrupt...please continue....Larry

 

[ARWUN]

Don't take my word alone; when you're interested in signing up, call the school and see how the conversation goes. Ask questions and see if you get useful answers.

Give that a try; I dare you. Tell them that you have years of track experience, and that you ride in the advanced group with every other track-day riding group around; that you are looking for some worthwhile instruction and critiquing on your riding style, and to get some tips for improvement. That's what I did, and their response was, "You will start out in Level I, just like everyone else that takes our courses. Don't worry; we have instructors that will give you individual attention, and will cater to your specific needs. I'm sure that the classroom instruction will contain new and beneficial ideas, which you will need before going on to the higher levels anyway." :2bitchsla Lies; all lies, I tell you.

Bottom line... CSS is a business... set up to make money, just like any other business. Unfortunately, their number one priority is to cover their asses, not customer satisfaction. I would guess that the percentage of satisfied students is not as high as the people reading the surveys think. I know a lot of people that were so disgusted with the whole set-up that they didn't even fill the thing out. It is pretty obvious to me that they wouldn't have listened anyway.:rant

 

[Randall]

Why countersteer?

Because motorcycles aren't fun when you go in the opposite direction than you intended.

 

[No_6]

okay, here is my .02.

I think there are some people getting hung-up on terminology here, so if I may, I would like to break things down a little differently--by using a baseball metaphor.

IMHO, maneuvering a motorcycle is like pitching a baseball. I liken CS to the arm motion. As baseball fans know if you only use your arm to throw, your pitches will be crap (and you'll burn out your arm). A whole body dynamic is used--which I liken to BS. Likewise, a ball thrown with a stiff arm and only body movement would be crap.

So, I use CS to initiate line-changes (steer) but use BS to control/maintain/prepare. I think this is where some of the confusion is coming into this--the "chicken and egg" of the entire CS/BS debate. Since in good, fast riding, BS occurs before you CS, as well as during and after. So since you BS before you CS, it must be steering, right?

Well, I don't know. All I know is that if I shift my body well before the corner, my transition into the corner when I CS is much smoother and less panic-inducing.

Now on the street, IMO it shouldn't ever be necessary to BS a motorcycle, just as when you are tossing a beer to your buddy 5 feet away you don't need to do a full wind-up. If you are riding hard enough to require BS on the street--well, RIP. Note I say necessary. I BS on the street because I want to reinforce good form, and build body-memory--not because I need to.

Okay, that was like .03.

Regards, and respect to everyone out there.

Man, I want to get back on the track...