:corn for the pics....

Those three exhaust valves are a tic tight, but I would be surprised if they caused the hard start, because it would get worse as it gets hot.... I bet they were that close from the factory, as it would typically get bigger not smaller....at least that's what happens on my old Honda that I have to adjust every few years....

Did you have any carbon build up on the throttle bodies? Also, were the cams still timed properly?

You have a bunch of miles on the bike right? How were the plugs? How many miles since the last change? I found that after 6k miles, the gap was out of spec.....

 

What was the temperature outside during the cold starts?

Systems of my bike after being flashed are similar. My bike will still start just fine but I have to keep the revs up to idle range by manually holding the throttle open or else the bike would slowly die. Once the bike is warmed up, it’s fine. Ride, stop somewhere (work) for a while and bike still fires up. This is only during the winter.

I seriously think it’s just fueling.

 

sparkies have been taken care of every 13k kms or so, like clockwork. No iridiums available.

They were due for a swap when I stopped riding the bike I think, maybe could have
handled a few more clicks but I planned on changing them out after this work.

They LOOk ok, not seriously black or anything, about normal based on last time I swapped them,
which was likely 48k kms or so. I'm pretty sure it was close to 50k. you can do the km to miles conversion :lol

basic math tells me i'm where I expected to be, I don't keep an OCD type record on maintenance but I know
I've followed very closely on spark refresh, mostly cause I know how many clicks I put on every year and how
often oil changes have come along. I only ever use synthetic oil, rotella T6 since 18k or so?

I had ruled out the spark plugs cause the little issue began some time after I had swapped them,
it did not get worse or better, just hard to start when cold. (the bike I mean, not outside temps)

meaning if I parked it over a couple of nights, the 1st time I start her out on Saturday morning and it needed a little love

Temps were pretty normal in summer time, around 15 to 20 degrees or so, morning weather before riding.

So no i'm not talking mid winter or anything silly, I do not ride year round.. I still live in Canada.

I would like to know if its possible the clearances got TIGHTER over time and why?

if not and they were like that from the factory then its not something to worry about then.

fueling at idle has been adjusted a few times, I've done the throttle body balancing and it ran fine after I did so.

so check, timing is fine (edit, see update below, 1 tooth off on intake side), sparkies will be swapped regardless,
fueling will be done regardless. cans will be freshly packed. No there are no major carbon buildups on the throttle
bodies nor the intake ports that we can see. But I will have pics.

I seriously think it’s just fueling.

I bet you say that to all the girls :hammer:

some quick searching online finds that some bikes can have clearances tighten over time. posts seem to show very similar
issues when they've found they are out of spec. Hard to start when bike is cold, needs throttle for it to idle properly. I do
not think they were this tight from the factory. Some riders have experienced lack of power at bottom which I don't
think I ever noticed, one thing is for certain I had literally JUST re-tuned the bike by a few months when the issues began
so I do not think its fueling. I'm sure I tried idle adjustments and it was BANG on at 13.4afr as soon as the bike was
warm, all day long like clockwork.

i'm seeing a lot of chatter regarding wear n' tear of parts once you start getting up there in mileage
and it appears like it is possible to start eating up the gap. All I know for certain is the manual calls
for a specific gap range for a reason and maintenance scheduled check at 40k kms.. I began to notice
this issue at about 52k kms or so? rough guess on my part but I do remember wanting to stop riding
it the last season I had it on the road. I had already decided to get a 2nd bike so I put this one away
for winter in 2015. Been on the cruiser since spring of '16.

Clearly they are out of spec, now I need to know how to proceed with the new camshafts, they are
oem cams but follow Graves improved specs for longer vale lift duration. How does this affect the
gaps once I drop those puppies is my question agues. I'm sure a few things will change before
I even start her up again.

 

I deff don't have that issue...and it was 38 the last time I started it....feels like forever ago....

 

My understanding is that valve lash clearances do get tighter over time due to the valves wearing into the head.

 

That is interesting....do these heads not have a hardened pressed in valve seat?

 

sub'd

 

Very interesting.

 

Sounds like you need to relap the valve seats....

I still would have expected something like this to get worse as it gets hot...as everything expands, and the valve to cam clearance goes away....

 

Sounds like you need to relap the valve seats....

yes, damn straight. Hence why I was asking what will be required once the new cams are in?

as you guys can tell I am not the kind of R1 owner that likes leaving things to chance.
I have seen several threads asking about this or that symptom with ZERO information
provided as to current state of little details as the above mentioned measurements.

Every thread has the exact same recommendations of checkups to be made and yet
they don't seem to be doing the work to figure out whats causing x or Y behavior.

It very quickly becomes one of them oil threads we love to bitch about.

At least now I've got questions that need answering, it seems to me i'm on the right track.

bits n' pieces I've gathered online.

they get tighter because the valve face and seat wear, resulting in the valve stem protruding
farther up into the head. the valve stem itself also stretches (especially titanium valves). Stretching
is due to extreme heat cycles. And of course once things cool back down the damage has been done
and you end up with valves that don't close 100%, or at least not 100% of the time or are a little
open at wrong intervals. Hence the idling issues when the bike is cold.

The most serious result of incorrect valve lash adjustment is damage to the valves and related components. Setting the clearances loosely causes parts of the valve mechanism to hammer together, damaging valves and creating a knocking or rattling sound. Setting the clearances too tight can prevent valves from completely closing (or not closing for enough time), which may cause extreme heat damage and complete valve failure. Always keep your engine valves adjusted according to the manufacturer's specifications.

So yes, I can see how exposing the valves to other strokes specially the combustion/power stroke if the
'exhaust' valve is still a little open it would fry that fvcker good for Sunday dinner!! Okay, so good!
I didn't completely kill her, it just means I need to throw a little more money into it should valves
show any damage. :thumbup

some sources say its better to have the lash tighten over time, and I can see based on the above
statements why this is the case. I definitely plan on getting the lash set correctly.

 

What about the valve shims wearing in and needing replacement

 

not entirely certain but I would suspect so :dunno

I think that is part of what Yamaha recommends replacing in the manual.. That is what I was thinking as well.

hmm, maybe we're not thinking this right in my particular case..


Engine wear, hammering on the shims etc can increase valve clearance. Minimize that with frequent oil changes.

Valve wear against the valve seals / seat when the valves are closed by the valve springs, decreases valve clearance.

comments came from the Aprilia forum:

These engines seem to hold their valve clearances for a very long time. AF-1 suggest that you look at the shims for signs of hammering when you take a shim out. If there is any sign that it's been hammered, just replace with the same size and it'll probably be just right again.

 

I am in the same position currently, I have about 42,000 on my 2010, it still runs perfect but before that changes I want to tune it back up, I had never needed valves adjusted yet but I feel like it's time. i haven't formed a plan about upgrades or anything yet, sounds like you have a good plan going so far

 

yep, I say just do the damn work and try not to waste much time sitting around wondering this or that.

I like numbers, I can do something with numbers :yesnod

the funniest thing about this whole thing is even dad just kept sayin' "oh i'm sure they're just fine you'd
know it if something was wrong".. I says, well hows not idling sound to you? oh it must me something else
then? Even suggested I not bother with a full checkup, at 60k kms. :shake

of course I ignored such a silly suggestion.. I have been slowly building the beasty since I purchased it
and been lucky enough to have the right deals fall on my lap at the right time. I'm keeping the bike
till it blows up anyway so I may as well take care of her.

 

quick update.. called dad after work tonight and mentioned what i'd read online.

I also went through my notes from seasons past and it appears at least one biker did mention this
would likely be the case on my R1. He's ridden with us a few times so hes aware I don't particularly
baby this beasty. If I had checked them at 45k or 50k kms its likely that they still would have been
within spec and I would have erred on the side of caution n' left them alone.

I guess I took one for the team and now we know these valves should definitely be checked at roughly
50 to 55k to avoid any surprises. Once I get it all back together I will be keeping a closer eye on actual
miles so I know when I have to go in there again. Not taking any chances, and neither should you!

The intake valve clearances are likely BANG on where Yamaha set them, as #1 clearance is slightly tighter then the other 3.
This is apparently very common for Yamaha to do and likely why it is throttle body#1 which is marked and cant be adjusted when balancing.

Dad believes it is less likely that all/most valves have stretched on the exhaust side, causing the tight clearances.
He thinks its much more likely that the seats have been worn in and the valve is sitting deeper into the head.

We plan on getting the lashes set on the exhaust side to 9 across the board to be on the safe side,
Of course I will also discuss this with the shop who's doing the headwork and ask for recommendations.

Hopefully the valves have not suffered much but I wont know until this weekend when it all starts coming apart. :fork

I made some adjustments to the chart on the 1st post as we followed Yamaha's procedure and measured
piston # 1, 3, 2, then 4 in that order. I think I flipped 2 & 3 when I posted them on here so i'll double check 'em.

Its very easy to find TDC on #1, 3 and 2. The marks on the sprocket are not dead on mind you, only for the 1st one.
But if you keep an eye on the lobes and follow the instructions you should not have any problems. I'll post reference
pages with pics. The 2nd and 4th piston hit TDC one right after the other as they fire very closely together. There
is no mark to find 4th piston TDC you just gotta watch for it. Firing order between the 1st and 3rd are further
apart in the rotation. Part of the Xplane beauty :fact

This would mean that it is piston #1 & #3 which are the tightest, with #2 likely still within spec and #4 just barely off.


* some random know-how found Engine Builder.com
as we're talking of valve stems that somehow grow a pair post-puberty and suddenly stand out in a crowd,
specially on the exhaust side (for obvious reasons); there's some good info in 'em pages :lol

"As great as titanium is, there are some tradeoffs with this particular metal. Titanium valves do not shed heat as quickly as stainless steel valves, so the valves tend to run hotter."

 

So check valves at 34,000 miles?

 

yep! that's my suggestion. Honestly I think I remember looking at the odo when the little gremlin's showed up.

I know it was tuned to damn near perfection which is why I started to think about headwork, cant have enough of a good thing. :hammer:

I'm pretty damn certain it started at about 52k or 54k.. 32k miles? Somewhere around there, you better check 'em
as its very likely they're off. I cringed the last 6-7k kms I rode her as I knew something was amiss >

I know my motorcycle inside and out, fer damn sure there's been nothing else wrong with performance at all.

I will say this, i'm DAMN impressed the INTAKE valves are so damn perfect.. i'm 100% certain that's what they were out of the box :fork

 

I guess that I have like 22 thousand more miles before I need to worry then....

 

hahahah, I have no idea what that feels like!!

I put a lot of miles on the road come summer time. you cannot find me in town on weekends, period

thought i'd post something else i'm wondering here, are the Yamaha R1 2009-14 Exhaust valves even titanium?

It looks like APE Racing parts has their kit fitted with Titanium Intake Valves BUT running STEEL Exhaust valves! :dunno

hmm, this makes me think again.. pull it apart, take a good look, I may be worrying for
nothing as the seats would be relapped either way on this go, hope the old man is correct,
and valve stems are not an issue,.

I say this because the OEM Yamaha intakes are 3 times more expensive than the exhaust valves (20 bucks each)

methinks they've aware of issues to be had with stretching stems on Ti. valves ?

 

It's a track bike....but now that I live out in the boonies, she might see more street miles....but I have another bike for that...So the R1 usually sits in track trim...so she sees about 1500 track miles a year these days....

 

yes that is what I figured!! I need two damn bike to keep mileage reasonable..

but hey I knew this was the gig when I got into distance trips.. if it were a Trial's bike it would be different :lol

 

:corn for pics already!...hahaha...

 

I think only the exhaust valves are Ti, explains your readings.


Edit: I checked, only the intake valves are Titanium, according to the shop manual and the OEM parts list. They are 3x the cost of the exhaust valves.
I don't know if that explains anything... I'll have to google valve wear Vs. valve composition.

I assumed the Ti valve is better for high temp exhaust use, but I guess it is for lighter weight, and allows a more radical cam profile. The intake valve is larger, so it makes more sense to use a lighter metal. Only reason not to make exhaust valves in Ti is the cost savings.

 

^^ read above posts.. intakes are titanium, yes they are more expensive than the exhaust side. Exhaust side cant be Titanium, cant handle the heat

please be aware my beasty has been sitting in the garage since end of summer '15.. it rained the last few rides we were out there.
The engine needs a little tlc, also part of the reason I've decided to do all this work now.. Gotta clean her up :thumbup

I have brand new PP3s in the storage room, ready for spring. :yesnod

pics re-posted.. photobucket sux

 

Exhaust side cant be Titanium, cant handle the heat

Suzuki has had titanium for all 16 valves since 2004 (GSX-R 600 & 750).

 

Oh la la!, Beryllium Copper Valve seats, hmmm :sneaky

 

Really....Did those ware that much?


P.S. Awesome pics....keep them coming!

 

^^ dunno, haven't looked at them.. I was just browsing online and i'm considering swapping out the OEMs, if they're that much better..

we didn't do much work on the bike this weekend after all but i'll start tearing the head apart soon enough.

 

oh those are not your valve seats ok.....yep, photobucket the great ruin-er of threads....

 

no no, just random shot off-site. there's two types, APE has 'em in BRONZE. looking into it..

I just figure, if i'm doing all this work right now, and the damn head is on their hands..

i'm not going back in for another 50k kms, take it slow, make decisions now rather than later :no :lol

images are back up!! more coming :thumbup

 

quick update.. HEAD has been removed, and I've got pictures to share!

looks like timing may have been 1 tooth off on the intake side but I cant find the pictures from when we set it, so i'll have to verify via APE Racing.

also, got clearance #s for all valves so i'll be updating my measurements on original post!!

NO VALVE head damage that I can see, and no piston damage either. Shims will have to
be swapped on most as the clearances need to be set right on the exhaust side. I read
through the numbers that came with the camshafts and it only shows the amount up or down
clearances are allowed to go from middle. The numbers are very close to what Yamaha
recommends as well so I guess this means i'll stay on the intakes and focus on the exhaust side/ :thumbup

stay tuned.


okay, so its Saturday night n' i'm in the middle of 'life' :lol

here's the pictures!! they're self explanatory, I will label them and add descriptions at a glance
but sufficed to say the valves look great! we managed to get a number off each of the valve
shims.. last picture shows all 'top-hats' and 'shim pads' neatly organized and ready for labeling.

I have parts list I need to double check but I will be replacing and/or upgrading where possible.

enjoy the pop corn! I need to grab my dremel soft head n' clean up the piston tops. there's a lot
of carbon on a couple of the pistons. Pretty normal for the mileage. Also pretty obvious I beat
up on her every chance I get!! :yesnod

:fork

 

:corn

 

atta boy, :epimp